D&D 5E I just don't buy the reasoning behind "damage on a miss".

[Dausuul]

Okay, I just had to work this out, because I'm like that. In 3E, the odds of a kobold with 1d8 hit points surviving a fireball cast by a 5th-level wizard depend on the wizard's Intelligence:

Wizard has Int 13 (minimum required to cast fireball): 1 in 37
Wizard has Int 16 (typical for a wizard built with the "elite array", with level 4 stat bump): 1 in 49
Wizard has Int 19 (typical for a point buy wizard, with level 4 stat bump): 1 in 59
Wizard has Int 25 (grey elf using point buy and fox's cunning): 1 in 141

So, it's actually not as unlikely as I would have expected--mostly because of the possibility of extra-tough kobolds that roll high on their hit dice and then make their saves. If you give the kobolds just the standard 4 hit points, the death toll gets much higher:

Wizard has Int 13 (minimum required to cast fireball): 1 in 926
Wizard has Int 16 (typical for a wizard built with the "elite array", with level 4 stat bump): 1 in 1,234
Wizard has Int 19 (typical for a point buy wizard, with level 4 stat bump): 1 in 1,481
Wizard has Int 25 (grey elf using point buy and fox's cunning): 1 in 3,703

Personally, I still would not bother rolling, because who the heck cares? It's a bunch of kobolds. If one of them does get lucky and survive, it'll just get decapitated the next round. It's not worth my or my players' time to game out a low-probability event with negligible consequences. Now, if it were a player character down to 4 hit points who was facing an NPC wizard's fireball, of course I would roll; the consequences there are far more significant.

 

[Wicht]

I think the issue that [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] is presenting (and something I've alluded to elsewhere) is that Armor + Dexterity being rolled into a single AC value means that "a miss is a combination of both failure to connect OR (not and) failure to penetrate and wound". It means that the narration must be presented as based on the fiction, not by any rules process, which I believe is somewhat antithetical to your desires.

I'm not sure what desires are antithetical to the process I use. I seem pretty happy with how it has traditionally worked, as far as I can tell. A low roll represents less finesse and a high roll more finesse. If the Character is skilled enough, their lack of finesse is still good enough to make some sort of connection, but is sloppier. A more precise roll (higher number) speaks to the focus of the Character. On the other hand, the damage dealt is reflective of the defenders ability to turn the blow or fail to negate the hit. The more precise shots (criticals) are that much harder to negate as the skill of the attacker overcomes defenses. But high damage rolls are also reflective of this.

Other than that, I am not sure what you are trying to argue. My language I guess could be made more precise, but I thought the meaning was obvious. When you miss it is because either you failed to connect or you failed to penetrate armor. Which it is, in any given roll is a matter of interpretation and narration. But the "damage on a miss" forces the assumption that it is always failure to penetrate armor and there is never a failure to connect in some way.

 

[Ahnehnois]

How do your players feel when an NPC calls "arrow in the eye," on them and succeeds?

Since I'm using it for modern games and not D&D, it's more like "kicked in the groin" or "shot in the head". And they have no problem with it. I could see it as an adjustment issue for a player who is used to doing things one way and for whom this is a shift.

At least in my experience, players accept that anything they can do (and more) is fair game to be done to them, and they feel pretty good about having the chance to slash open an artery or knock someone in the head, and they're willing to accept that the same might happen to them. Players go into the game knowing that being crippled or killed is a possibility and that it may happen independent of any choices they make.

It's a heck of a lot more fun than trying to find a new way to narrate "you take 5 damage". Let alone "the attack misses, but you still take 5 damage".

 

[Wicht]

Okay, I just had to work this out, because I'm like that. In 3E, the odds of a kobold with 1d8 hit points surviving a fireball cast by a 5th-level wizard depend on the wizard's Intelligence:

I'm not sure how you are doing your math. Intelligence does not affect damage, it does increase the DC of the save. Assuming a 5th level Wizard with 16 intelligence, the DC of the save is going to be 16. A Kobold with a +1 Reflex save needs to roll a 15 or higher to make the save, which means they will make it 30% of the time. Assuming an average damage roll of about 16, that means that 30% of the kobolds will take only 8 damage from an average 5th level fireball. But at the margins, they could take anywhere from 3 to 15 points of damage on a successful save.

But also, in 3e, the kobolds don't actually die until they are at -10, and in Pathfinder it is negative Constitution. A Pathfinder Kobold has 5 hps (unless you roll then it is 1d10), and an average 10 Con. So, a fireball has to deal 15 points of damage to kill them outright. In 3.5 it would be 14 hp's. If the kobolds have a cleric with them, capable of channeling energy, the average fireball may knock most of them out, and may even kill about 70% of them, but the ones that make their save are by no means out of the fight.

Its worth rolling for - both damage and saves.

 

[Garthanos]

Wizard has Int 13 (minimum required to cast fireball): 1 in 926 .

The chance of rolling just 5 or 6 on 5 dice.. is that high?
Off the top of my head the chance of rolling 5 is 1 in 7776... the chance of rolling 4 1's adds another 5 successful case doesnt that still leave you with 1 in 1296 and that is before adding the effect that you have to make the save?

 

[Garthanos]

But also, in 3e, the kobolds don't actually die until they are at -10

Not sure why they need to be Dead dead instead of just mostly dead and dying..

 

[Wicht]

Personally, I still would not bother rolling, because who the heck cares?

On the rare occasion when I call a fight (very, very rarely and only because of time constraints), I always get the feeling my players feel cheated and disappointed.

And I, as a DM, care, so I feel a little cheated myself when I do it.

 

[Mistwell]

Wut?

So you're trying to tell me that you have never had a waterballoon burst next to you and wet you a little, while being hit full on wet you more.

Unless you are the Flash, you couldn't out run it.

You throw it in a direction, and wherever it lands it spreads exactly equally in all directions rather than mostly in the direction it was thrown as if dropped exactly from above (try that with a water balloon - throw it 50 times in a row, and remember it has to do that every single time with no chance for the liquid to not go in all directions roughly equally)?

It burns through even the most powerful magical powerful full plate mail or even +5 non-metal armor, diamond armor, and even magical force fields, and strikes even the smallest fastest most dexterous thing in all the world (and this is ordinary burning oil too by the way)?

And this thing you have no issues at all with, in terms of believability?

Compare that to a warrior striking, however glancing a blow it might be, any one creature right next to them, no matter how fast or well protected.

To me, it is far less believable the splash weapon damage, than the warrior's damage. Both have issues with believability, but the splash weapon edges on preposterous given the way it works in ways the warrior cannot even challenge.

 

[Wicht]

Not sure why they need to be Dead dead instead of just mostly dead and dying..

Well, mostly it doesn't matter, but sometimes it does. Depends on the fight and the subsequent actions of other Characters (cf. kobold cleric with channeling).

 

[Garthanos]

The random nature of Dungeons and Dragons combat has always created a rather loose connection between the choices of the Player and the actual actions of the Character. If you read Gygax's thinking about it, it was meant to model an extended back and forth

1 minute melee rounds created enough disconnect for us we felt like the characters were more puppet/pawn like it was a point of lost immersion honestly.. and unless you are going with those longer melee rounds it looses its bite.

with the assumption the PC would know better than the Player what would be the right choice given the abilities and position of the other.

Til you got to mechanics given to the mage.. A spell casting system could have Ley Lines and environmental factors and astrological correspondence and similar things which determined availability and suitability of spell casters powers and types there of which might be available... You dont suppose it was for the sake of fun they got to choose.