D&D 5E L&L December 16th Can you feel it?

[Gundark]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20131216

My input to come after reading the article

 

[pemerton]

If you have only one 3rd-level spell left to cast, it makes sense for your character to say something like, “I can cast fireball or fly once more before I need to rest and regain my power.” The mechanics describe the world in terms that make sense to your character.

I'm not sure how this is meant to be reconciled with the most ubiquitous of all D&D mechanics, namely, hp.

"I can be take one more sword blow before I'm killed." "I can fall down one more 10' pit trap before I'm in danger of breaking my neck?" What does either of these correspond to from the character's point of view?

I'm also not a big fan of "Complexity in Strategy, Simplicity in Tactics" - that leads to a game in which all the real choices are made during prep (say, in spell load out) and not during play. I prefer for play to matter more than prep.

 

[howandwhy99]

When a mind flayer comes around the corner, both you and your 3rd-level wizard should be overcome by fear and plotting an escape. When six kobolds swarm your 12th-level fighter, both you and your character should be confident of victory.

When a mindflayer comes around the corner, both you, your 3rd-level wizard, and the mindflayer should plot an escape. The mindflayer's high morale won't stop it from mind blasting you before running to hide (then mind blasting you again), but your wizard shouldn't have been on point anyway. Not to mention your party is way its head, if it's randomly bumping into mindflayers.

Magic-users in D&D are a difficult class to play. They are almost fully strategic in terms of combat. They can stop a mass melee before it happens, but round by round? The higher level they are the less they should ever step into a melee to fight. Spells chosen daily matter and that decision process can be opened up to the group by the player. Maybe you need the Rope Trick and Silence spells for everyone to rest, and that Remove Curse cast first thing on Garibaldi in the morning, but do you really need Identify or Mending today? And do you go defensive or offensive? Wall of Ice and Feather Fall or Ice Storm and Sleep? And then how long do you hold onto them?

Some players believe not casting every spell for the day before rest means a wasted day. Have you seen a spell-less wizard in a dungeon? It's not your best option. Besides, almost no one guesses right for every situation for every day. This is the game play challenge for the player choosing this class. It's the actual role playing they will do. Like a fighter who packs for ranged combat and hauls in her own cover, wizards needs to prepare for what they expect to face each day.

Also,
How is a thief waiting for his sneak attack and then finding a wight in a barrowmound break their immersion? Is immersion in this case expected class challenge opportunities? Fighters running into wraiths and specters are in trouble too without some magic on their side. And magic doesn't need to mean a magic-user. Rogues should be sneaking by many undead, most fighters are going to be looking to them for help to do the same.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

So we have a D&D feel or D&D mindset...

As Mike Mearls notes fantasy readers without D&D experience might stumble about - surely among others - the way spell casting works. Why, oh why don't add a description of the mindset to the rules?

 

[Bluenose]

How is "We're doing spellcasting this way because it's the D&D way!" compatible with the way they've changed spellcasting in Next? Seriously, either have the courage to do things the way you say you're doing them or not, but don't say you're doing it when you aren't.

 

[Derren]

The key is that rogues are devious. They prefer ambushes, tricks, and indirect attacks. A rogue fights on open, even terms only if there are no other options. Rogues aren’t straight-up warriors or anatomists—they’re devious opportunists and backstabbers. As such, a rogue knows how to maximize attacks when a foe’s guard is down. Your rogue should be able to spot a crack in a stone golem’s leg or the flickering central essence of a fire elemental as easily as he or she can target a living foe where it hurts.

This is the problem with D&D. Everything has to be a combat class which leads to the rogue needing to be as powerful in combat than a knight. How? Backstab! In 4E it even goes so far that any flavor like not being able to backstab undead got removed because of the need of balancing the combat power of the rogue with the fighter.

When does D&D finally grow up and leave its wargaming roots behind and become a real RPG I wonder? Maybe never in the case that 5E fails.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not everything needs to be a combat class... but the classic rogue/fighter/cleric are.

At least when the rogue is sneaking around, ready to backstab.
Maybe the rogue´s backstab damage should rather be subdual and an encounter... but whe I imagine a D&D rogue, i want him to go in, find what is needed and at least be able to deal with low level/mid guards. And this is what the current rogue can bring to the table. And I would not be sad, if there were subclasses that are a lot less combat oriented...

 

[I'm A Banana]

I love that over all, what he's describing is tearing down that wrought iron fence made of tigers between gameplay and story. When the story I tell matches the game I'm playing, Things Are Good!

One of the best bits:

Narrative cohesion is simply the description of what’s happening in the world. In most cases, it’s so obvious that we don’t notice it. Plate armor provides better protection than leather. Giants are stronger than orcs. However, in building mechanics, it’s easy to lose track of what’s happening in the game world. Likewise, if you pay too much attention to the reality of the campaign, then the rules can easily bloat out of control. Finding the middle ground between too much and too little abstraction is a huge challenge in RPG design.

I'm happy to perhaps see the end of "This level 20 Orc minion hits harder than this level 6 Ogre, because numbers."

How is "We're doing spellcasting this way because it's the D&D way!" compatible with the way they've changed spellcasting in Next? Seriously, either have the courage to do things the way you say you're doing them or not, but don't say you're doing it when you aren't.

I get that response. Still, 5e wizards are a lot more like traditional D&D wizards than 4e wizards, so perhaps it's relative to where they're coming from! And I imagine the options will be there to strip out many of the more "non-D&D" bits (which, at the moment, is mostly at-will cantrips and no casting-interruption mechanic).

"I can be take one more sword blow before I'm killed." "I can fall down one more 10' pit trap before I'm in danger of breaking my neck?" What does either of these correspond to from the character's point of view?

For me, it's always been something along the lines of, "I'm tired. I'm wounded. I can't move that well. The next time a goblin sticks me, it might go all the way through. I need to be careful. I need to rely on my friends."

The fact that for me, HP are mostly meaty, and that D&D has no death spiral means that I'm playing a heroically tough and resolute champion who can take a dozen cuts and stabs and still stumble forward, relatively un-hampered until her last ounce of resilience gives out and it all catches up with her.

I'm also not a big fan of "Complexity in Strategy, Simplicity in Tactics" - that leads to a game in which all the real choices are made during prep (say, in spell load out) and not during play. I prefer for play to matter more than prep.

I don't know that this must be a consequence. Simplicity doesn't imply that the option doesn't matter, just that the choice is clear and quick. Should I run or should I continue to fight? Should I blast the guy to the left or to the right? Big choices. Clear consequences. Fast decision-making.

Strategy has more potential to be "fiddly" in this regard, where small changes can have big fractal effects. I hope they keep in mind that some folks want stuff like kingdom management, but don't want to eat up a whole night doing it.

 

[jeckyllgeek]

This is the problem with D&D. Everything has to be a combat class which leads to the rogue needing to be as powerful in combat than a knight. How? Backstab! In 4E it even goes so far that any flavor like not being able to backstab undead got removed because of the need of balancing the combat power of the rogue with the fighter.

When does D&D finally grow up and leave its wargaming roots behind and become a real RPG I wonder? Maybe never in the case that 5E fails.

The problem is that if you don't remove backstab immunity for undead an undead themed adventure can easily become boring and frustrating for a rogue's player. Things like flavor or immersion are utterly pointless and even worse destructive to the game as a whole when they make the game boring or frustrating.

 

[Kinak]

How is "We're doing spellcasting this way because it's the D&D way!" compatible with the way they've changed spellcasting in Next? Seriously, either have the courage to do things the way you say you're doing them or not, but don't say you're doing it when you aren't.

Agreed. While I personally like the changes they've made to the casting mechanic, it's not traditional D&D casting.

Which is actually a much more interesting topic. They have a mechanic that a lot of people hate and a lot of people, sometimes the same people, consider central to their brand identity. How do you balance those needs?

Cheers!
Kinak