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D&D 5E The Illusion of Experience Points that Everyone Disbelieves

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Skyscraper

Adventurer
(This thread was inspired by the recent poll on use of experience points.)

What is the purpose of experience points?

They measure and calibrate the advancement in the stepped power curve that are PC levels, over time. The PC levels in turn give access to new powers and give the player the satisfaction of seeing his or her PC evolve.

However, use of experience points is an illusion, in most D&D games and in many other RPGs alike. Level advancement is the only required mechanic for PC power advancement.

Indeed, in D&D, whatever the level a group of PCs is, that group will only undertake adventures designed for that level. Not only that, but commercial D&D campaigns and adventuresd even calculate how many XPs the PCs are likely to earn during each adventure, and the level of each adventure is accordingly calibrated. Adventures would arguably not even be fun if undertaken by PCs of the "wrong" level.

Consequently, tracking experience points is useless, since the PCs will be of a determined level at certain milestones of the campaign anyway. This is all that counts and it will be invariable whether XPs are tracked or not.

The alternate solution then becomes to have the PCs level up at determined milestones and ignore XPs altogether.

If XPs are tracked, then PCs might reach that level slightly before or slightly after that milestone, from one gaming group to the next, which changes nothing really. It's only an illusion that PCs evolve according to their own merits and achievements. This is an illusion since the adventure has the PCs evolve at a predetermined rate, which is honestly quite precise. Or, if in a homebrew without a determine level advancement rate, the DM still reacts by pitting the PCs against level-appropriate opponents, so the result is the same, only in this case the adventure level is chosen depending on the level of the PCs, and not the other way around; but the result is the same, i.e. the PCs are pitted against level-appropriate opponents.

Not only that, but everyone is aware of that illusion. No one believes that "it so happens" that the PCs encounter given monsters when they are level 1, and "it so happens" that the PCs encounter these other monsters when they are level 10. We all know that the DM and/or the adventure/campaign designers plan these things most precisely.

I recognize however that there are rare D&D campaigns, usually homebrews, and usually in the form of sandbox campaigns, where DMs allow PCs to freely roam a game world and meet monsters that are way too strong for them; and the players then need to identify that fleeing or otherwise avoiding combat is the proper solution. This is fine and I recognize that XPs can have much greater value in such campaigns. But this type of game is the exception. By and large, most campaigns pit the PCs against "level-appropriate" encounters.

My suggestion is to do away with experience points as the default assumption in D&D Next. Instead, level advancement occurs at determined milestones that are in turn determined either in the adventure or campaign, or decided by the DM or by the entire playing group. This would simplify the game for a vast majority of gaming groups.

If, in the rarer freeform campaigns (in which category my own campaigns fall), DMs need guidance on when to have PCs advance in level, simple guidelines can be provided. Myself, I like to have PCs level up when an adventure hook is completed (depending on the adventure of course), so I wing it. "Now seems like a good time" is my guideline. For those that like something a bit more structured, but still much simpler than tracking XPs, levelling up could occur at every given number of encounters. Or at every given number of game sessions. This is much simpler than have the DM and all players track, calculate and use an encounter-based XP system where each monster, plus other achievements such as disabling traps, social encounters (!), getting treasure, "good RP" (!), and other elements are rewarded on a regular basis and requires caculations that, in the end, have no in-game result.

An XP system could still be provided for those that wish to continue using XPs, as an optional rule. This would not be complex, since monster power level still needs to be measured, to facilitate encounter design. For example, monster power could established in levels, e.g. monsters leves range from 1-20, and monster types are either minions, normal, elite and solo (to take the 4E example). XPs could easily be calculated accordingly if an XP system is desired.
 

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Indeed, in D&D, whatever the level a group of PCs is, that group will only undertake adventures designed for that level.

That's a broad generalization I think you'll have to justify. It isn't true in a sandbox game, for example. Even in less sandboxy modes, characters have choices that can lead them to taking more or less risky options.

Consequently, tracking experience points is useless, since the PCs will be of a determined level at certain milestones of the campaign anyway. This is all that counts and it will be invariable whether XPs are tracked or not.

The alternate solution then becomes to have the PCs level up at determined milestones and ignore XPs altogether.[/quote]

In games that are not strictly defined adventure paths, you don't know where the action will go, so you can't set milestones beforehand.

Also, what you say fails to be true in a game where XP are also being spent - like with 3.Xe magic item creation rules.

Which is not to say you cannot play a game where you toss out XP. It just means there are game structures where XP are not, as you suggest, useless.
 

What is the purpose of experience points?
I don't think they effectively serve any purpose, which is why I dropped them.

One purpose would be as a form of motivation. Give XP for defeating monsters, then the players will actively seek out monsters. Same for money. The problem is that these things already have built-in incentives, and if anything, XP seems to encourage players to go overboard and play characters whose only goal is to kill things and take their stuff. Which I guess is okay if you want hack and slash, but if you do, the XP rewards probably aren't necessary.

Another goal would be to model learning, but learning isn't nearly as iterative or rapid as D&D advancement would suggest, and doesn't generally arise from killing things and taking their stuff.

It could be a pacing mechanism, which is okay, but makes the actual XP numbers really superfluous and suggests leveling ad hoc is fine.

My suggestion is to do away with experience points as the default assumption in D&D Next. Instead, level advancement occurs at determined milestones that are in turn determined either in the adventure or campaign, or decided by the DM or by the entire playing group. This would simplify the game for a vast majority of gaming groups.
Sounds fine to me. This is exactly the sort of thing that can be easily forgotten during the basic design, and then added back in for anyone who does want it for whatever reason.
 

...commercial D&D campaigns and adventuresd even calculate how many XPs the PCs are likely to earn during each adventure, and the level of each adventure is accordingly calibrated...Consequently, tracking experience points is useless, since the PCs will be of a determined level at certain milestones of the campaign anyway. This is all that counts and it will be invariable whether XPs are tracked or not.....I recognize however that there are rare D&D campaigns, usually homebrews, and usually in the form of sandbox campaigns, where DMs allow PCs to freely roam a game world and ...
I am not sure such D&D campaigns are as rare as you seem to think they are, not all DMs rely on published adventures to run their campaigns...

Also, XP is such a cornerstone of D&D, one that inspired many other RPGs, that it would feel weird if it would go IMO. The great thing about them, is one can easily ignore them while another can still use them to level. #win/win
 

was inspired by the recent poll on use of experience points.)

What is the purpose of experience points?

They're simply a form of in-game currency used as an abstract power meter and incentive. I feel much like Ahnehnois does and did away with them.
 

I agree that XP are vitally important for old-school, sandbox play and need to be included. Remember that these are some of the gamers they are trying specifically to attract.

It's also clear that the rules need to specify that DMs should ignore the rule for the appropriate styles of play. This would take a really well-written sidebar, though.

Additional note - if each class still had it's own advancement table, and multi- or dual-classed characters split XP between classes, then XP becomes important again, as the measure for whether a class advances quickly or slowly. Taking this rule out is what led to XP becoming irrelevant.
 

(This thread was inspired by the recent poll on use of experience points.)

What is the purpose of experience points?

Keeping score.

However, use of experience points is an illusion, in most D&D games and in many other RPGs alike. Level advancement is the only required mechanic for PC power advancement.

True. But if "this isn't needed" is the metric for dropping a mechanic, the rulebooks are going to look very thin.

Indeed, in D&D, whatever the level a group of PCs is, that group will only undertake adventures designed for that level.

Unfortunately, this is a generalisation so broad, and so regularly flouted, that it undermines pretty much all of the rest of your post. In particular, it was common with pre-3e games for the PC party to be composed of members of different, and sometimes widely different, levels.
 

I find XP enjoyable and helpful. They give granularity to the progression system, allowing for small rewards that culminate in leveling. You could skip that and go right to levels, but then it is hard to give anything for defeating a single encounter. The thing is, if you do not like XP it is easy enough to ignore. If you do like it, and they take it out, then it is very hard to house rule back in. Better to have the system, and let those who dislike it ignore it.
 

You gain XP to level up is pretty much the norm, even if some adventure or DMs may skip this part to decide when leveling occur, the norm shouldn't necessarily be relegated to an optional rule IMO. I certainly think it'd be good to have advices on various advancement methods in the DMG, but i for one wouldn't want to see XP removed from the core.
 

Experience points served a much broader purpose in the earlier editions of the game insofar as they were currency, on top of everything they still are today. Sometimes the expenditure was forced, sometimes it was volunteered, but it was possible for an adventuring group to include adventurers at different levels despite having always adventured together, due to level drain, high-level spellcasting, magical item manufacture, or other reasons.

And that's before you take into consideration the fact that classes required different quantities of experience for advancement, or the fact that demihuman races had level caps in order to give players a (possibly misguided) reason to play humans.

Figuring out how to manage this disparity in-world was part of the game.

For my part, this "experience accounting" is a part of D&D that I have missed since AD&D2, and while I do not hold out hope that D&D5 will bring it back in any real fashion, I certainly can't get behind the total removal of the experience point system.

In one of my current games I am simply leveling up the party at campaign milestones, because the content of the campaign is entirely published material (the whole of the Planescape canon), and while I cannot deny the efficiency of the procedure it feels terribly sterile.
 

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