D&D 5E The Illusion of Experience Points that Everyone Disbelieves

[Balesir]

Think of XP as Gold Pieces for Dungeon! the boardgame. A lot of D&D elements came from that game including differing XP requirements.

Um, I think you'll find it went the other way around. The Dungeon! boardgame was derived from D&D...

 

[Skyscraper]

More good insight on XPs and how people see them.

I'll note, firstly, that I do not advocate complete removal of XPs in 5E. I'm just saying, don't push them as the default assumption. For those that want to use them, a simple system could be contemplated, for example:

XP = monster level X 100 X (monster type)

where monster type = 1 for normal monsters, 2 for elite, 4 for solo, etc...

Or, you could even have XPs in the monster manual. But propose to groups to use a more simple system, and those that want to continue using XPs for all the good reasons mentioned in this thread, can do so.

Why remove them as the default assumption? Well at least to cut down on the XP calculations by the DM as he prepares adventures; by the DM when he needs to distribute XPs; and by the players when they receive XP.

Many posters mention that it's easier to ignore than it is to put back in. Not sure about that. If XPs are either easy to calculate or even provided in the monster entry, then it's a breeze to bring them back in. However, by not having them as the default assumption, you're saving a lot of groups, a bit of time every session, every game.

Presently, my impression is that XPs are being used at least in part because they are not being questioned. In AD&D (and in old-school type games generally), they made more sense because it was frequent to have characters evolve at different rates, each class had varying XP tables, PCs might encounter monsters of way different level than theirs, and so on. But now? Since 3E, things have changed. Now, in 5E, classes have a single XP table, commercial adventures are designed expecting PCs to be of a given level as I mentioned. 5E appears to have the 4E approach, and therein the XPs had little use, really, if commercial adventures were run, or if your adventures were like commercial adventures.

I'll also throw another fish in the bucket. Removing XPs might very well help immersion and the pleasure of gaming. (I can hear the "oh's!" and "ah's!" from here .) I've played AD&D for 15 years, a while back, and got back with my old gaming group a few years ago in 4E, after having played with other people for the last decade. My old gaming group had used XPs, while my newer group had ditched the XPs a while ago (we initially used them too). The first fight in my recent game with my old gaming group was one where there ended up being a lot of tension, the party almost got wiped out, but they managed to survive, a great fight all around. When they managed to win it in the end, relief, smiles all around, players playing in-character and talking about trying to figure X-Y-Z about the opponents, already getting into the plot... And then one player asks: "so, how many XPs do we get for this?" And all players forget all about the story and the fight, and they all happily pick up their PC sheet and their pencils, and go "yeah, how many?"

This kind of broke that moment for me. It was like, out of the story, and into the meta, to calculate XPs. Boy was that a bummer.

Now I know many groups give XPs on a per-session basis, instead of per-fight; but that point remains valid, if less disturbing. XP is metagaming and is about giving rewards for in-game accomplishments. I find that that kind of reward is not required for the game to be fun; and on the contrary, in my personal experience, and according to my personal opinion, it is detrimental to the pleasure of gaming. It's like giving your son 25 cents each time he scores a goal when playing soccer, or one dollar when he wins a game of Monopoly against you. As humans, it's very difficult to dissociate the hope for the reward from the play experience (I know I can't). Pavlovian reflex? Don't know, I'm no psychologist.

Can't we just play without that reward?

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

(...)

Can't we just play without that reward?

No, thanks.

 

[Uller]

This kind of broke that moment for me. It was like, out of the story, and into the meta, to calculate XPs. Boy was that a bummer.

Couldn't the same be true of a group that levels up at DM (or group) discretion?

DM: You finally arrive at town. After your harrowing journey all you want to do is find a meal, a drink and a warm bed (and perhaps a warm body to share it with), but you know Lord Turin's men are not far behind. You can either find a place to bed down for the night or head over to Lady Mithra's mansion to warn her. What do you want to do?

Player1: I'm low on arrows and need some new armor.

Player2: I think we should head for the seediest tavern in town and find out what is really happening around here.

Player3: We've been Level 3 for 4 sessions now. Can we level up soon?

Metagaming is part of D&D and RPGs. As long as levels and/or XP are part of the reward system (and I believe it should remain so) players will look forward to leveling up and will want to know how they're progressing. I don't see this as a problem.

 

[Dungeoneer]

Couldn't the same be true of a group that levels up at DM (or group) discretion?

DM: You finally arrive at town. After your harrowing journey all you want to do is find a meal, a drink and a warm bed (and perhaps a warm body to share it with), but you know Lord Turin's men are not far behind. You can either find a place to bed down for the night or head over to Lady Mithra's mansion to warn her. What do you want to do?

Player1: I'm low on arrows and need some new armor.

Player2: I think we should head for the seediest tavern in town and find out what is really happening around here.

Player3: We've been Level 3 for 4 sessions now. Can we level up soon?

Metagaming is part of D&D and RPGs. As long as levels and/or XP are part of the reward system (and I believe it should remain so) players will look forward to leveling up and will want to know how they're progressing. I don't see this as a problem.

Typically if you're not using XP you level up at natural breaks in the story - a rest between adventures or other milestones. You can even level at home: "Okay, great job guys, you've made it to the town! Everybody levels up. We'll pick up next week, everybody bring a level 5 character sheet."

 

[howandwhy99]

And then one player asks: "so, how many XPs do we get for this?" And all players forget all about the story and the fight, and they all happily pick up their PC sheet and their pencils, and go "yeah, how many?"

This kind of broke that moment for me. It was like, out of the story, and into the meta, to calculate XPs. Boy was that a bummer.

FYI, playing a game, even D&D, isn't about expressing a story. There is no "creating a shared fiction" in RPGs. It's about playing the game and if you don't want players who want to know the score, don't play a game.

Can't we just play without that reward?

XP aren't a reward. They're a score. Just like the ability scores. A player isn't a better player for having a higher XP character. That was a faulty assumption by a lot of young kids (unkindly called munchkins) who brought a PC of, say, 39^th! level with every magic item on them and expected they would be considered experts. Playing well is its own reward and players can recognize greatness in themselves. Excellence is not something one pretends unless they are lying to themselves.

 

[Uller]

Typically if you're not using XP you level up at natural breaks in the story - a rest between adventures or other milestones. You can even level at home: "Okay, great job guys, you've made it to the town! Everybody levels up. We'll pick up next week, everybody bring a level 5 character sheet."

I understand that and with my group that is what normally happens (and we currently don't use XP or even keep track of treasure found). Which is why I used the arrival at town as an example. Sometimes you arrive at town mid session but it's still a natural break in the story and the player that wants to level up is just as likely to ask about it as he is to ask about XP. So what?

My point is, as long as there are notions like levels and XP as rewards or measures of accomplishment/character power, players will metagame. It's the carrot for many (including myself, I must confess...). It is a game after all. Metagaming != bad gaming, IMO.

Edit: Also, the "XP should not be the default" crowd are (I think...I could be wrong) are assuming that all the PCs are the same level which seems to be the assumption of 4e. It appears to me that the encounter building table in the 5e DMG makes no such assumption. XP is a very useful way to keep lower level PCs advancing so that they an catch up to higher level ones...the current XP table for 5e doesn't allow them to catch up fast enough, IMO, but it appears that character that is a few levels behind at lower levels will close the gap at higher levels. Certainly this could be done with a no XP game, but it would seem a bit more arbitrary to me.

 

[Mistwell]

More good insight on XPs and how people see them.

I'll note, firstly, that I do not advocate complete removal of XPs in 5E. I'm just saying, don't push them as the default assumption.

I firmly disagree. Nobody's going to refuse to play because XP is included as a default assumption because they can just level on milestones as they always have. But LOTS of people will leave if it's not the default assumption, because it's a tradition found in every single version of D&D, it's crucial for some playstyles, and there is no good reason to remove it given how easy it is to ignore.

 

[Dungeoneer]

I firmly disagree. Nobody's going to refuse to play because XP is included as a default assumption because they can just level on milestones as they always have. But LOTS of people will leave if it's not the default assumption, because it's a tradition found in every single version of D&D, it's crucial for some playstyles, and there is no good reason to remove it given how easy it is to ignore.

Assuming they don't do something like require players spend XP for crafting, i.e. 3.x. If 5e uses XP strictly for leveling then indeed ignoring it should be easy. There's no reason why they shouldn't sketch out an optional 'XP-free' rule in a sidebar, though.

 

[Thyrwyn]

FYI, playing a game, even D&D, isn't about expressing a story. There is no "creating a shared fiction" in RPGs. It's about playing the game and if you don't want players who want to know the score, don't play a game.

I like your signature. But I cannot wrap my head around this. I would argue that "creating a shared fiction" is the default, unavoidable outcome. At the least it should be able to co-exist with a "score". Look at it this way: every game of RISK I ever played had a story - even if we quit early and no one won.