D&D 5E D&D Next Starter Set - how should it look like?

[delericho]

The inclusion of dice is something I'm uncertain of. It's a handy addition, making it an all-in-one product, but dice typically either necessitate a larger box, or a product that is wider/taller than standard to accommodate a tube of dice, making it awkward for store shelves.

Plus dice are expensive, and require that extra step.

In the UK, the inclusion of dice transforms the product from a 'book' to a 'game' (there are other criteria, but this is one definitive one). That makes it liable for both import duty and VAT, both of which books are exempt from, adding more than 20% to the cost of the product.

Still, a Starter Set should include dice.

 

[Nikosandros]

I don't disagree, and if WotC was willing to increase the price to accommodate dice that would be nice. But they seem dead set on the $20 price point for the starter set, which means dice are too pricey to include. Not without reducing the usability of the product.

We don't really know if WotC is dead set on this price. It appeared briefly on B&N, but it might have been a temporary place holder and the final price might be different.

 

[Nikosandros]

There is no need for all the same color (why would they need that for a basic set?)

Indeed. The Mentzer Basic Set had the dice all of different colors.

 

[JeffB]

The PFBB was decent. Didn't care for the pre-gen's. It doesn't feel like an RPG if you dont build your PC and giving new players that "easy button" seems to bypass the heart of PnP. Levels 1 - 10 would be great because I've never cared for progression past that.

I know IME, trying to get my 11yo son and his peers (at the time) into D&D, pre-gens were not a hit with the black dragon 3e set. When i got the PFBB and told them we would be making characters, that was a HUGE turning point in their sustained interest in playing. They much preferred making their own, and having some investment.

3 years later I am still running games for them.

As a kid, I never wanted to be John Carter, or James Bond, Elric, or El Cid. I wanted to be guy LIKE them

 

[frogimus]

I know IME, trying to get my 11yo son and his peers (at the time) into D&D, pre-gens were not a hit with the black dragon 3e set. When i got the PFBB and told them we would be making characters, that was a HUGE turning point in their sustained interest in playing. They much preferred making their own, and having some investment.

3 years later I am still running games for them.

As a kid, I never wanted to be John Carter, or James Bond, Elric, or El Cid. I wanted to be guy LIKE them

So true. Kids already roleplay, they use their imagination more than most adults allow themself to. Rolling their own PC allows them to build that persona that is already within them.

 

[Jester David]

There is no need for all the same color (why would they need that for a basic set?), but the manufacturer can provide any color at those prices (it's the manufacturer, not a retailer - these are not inventory items, you just tell them what you want and they do that). The price is not $2-$3, even if you multiple by 5. It's pretty simple math:

$0.02 x 7 = $0.14. $0.14 x 5 = $0.70. That's it, a big whopping 70 cents for the set of seven dice.

And even the "fancy" dice don't come out to the prices you named earlier, not even close.

So, can we PLEASE put this myth to bed now? Adding dice to the set are not expensive.

And again, these are just the first two prices I pulled from Ali Baba. There are cheaper ones, and you get a lower price if you order a lot more.

And if you're going to claim again in the future that it is, then PROVE THE PRICE WOTC PAYS. Otherwise, we can all see what the actual wholesale price is. Those were actual manufacturer wholesale prices I linked to - I've bought those identical dice at GenCon that I linked to. There is simply no reason to continue pretending the cost is higher than it actually is. What is to gain from not using the real data?

Okay, we'll go with the cheapest if cheap for prices and assume that the company can provide dice all at the same pattern of colours and extra d10 for no extra cost. And we'll ignore the higher price from that sane company (it goes up to $0.06) and assume those are different dice from the ones pictured or that all the dice are the same price (rather than d4s being $0.02 and d20s being $0.06; which is why I went with the higher average price in my last example. But I forgot to mention that, oops, my bad).

Except, as mentioned, you still need to pay someone sort the dice. And you need pay someone to package the dice in the boxes. Oh yeah, and you need boxes now, or some other type of specialty package to contain the dice.
So, no, it's not just $0.14.

Doing the math, making the box has to cost less than $4. Which means every cent counts. Dice are a luxury.

I'd like dice in the starter set. It would be nice. But if it's going to come at the expense of 16-pages of content. Not when they could give you options such as using dice you already have or having a cardboard sheet with punch-out tokens that you can use.

Plus, let's be realistic, there aren't waves of new players sitting at the wings waiting to buy the game. Kids aren't going to buy this product on a whim, it's going to be bought for them by adults aware of the game (who can likely find dice). Curiosity will drive kids to Google the game, but dropping $20 for a demo is unlikely. New players who are seriously interested in the game will save up for "the real game" and get the PHB, which won't come with dice either.
The vast majority of people who will buy this product are going to be established gamers willing to pay $20 for an early look at the rules, or for a simpler version of the game with fewer bells and whistles.

 

[frogimus]

With a $20 MSRP and the distribution network of a huge toy/games company, I imagine these will show up at Toys R Us, Target, FYE, Walmart, etc. In those stores, dice would be expected.

 

[Mistwell]

Okay, we'll go with the cheapest if cheap for prices and assume that the company can provide dice all at the same pattern of colours and extra d10 for no extra cost. And we'll ignore the higher price from that sane company (it goes up to $0.06) and assume those are different dice from the ones pictured or that all the dice are the same price (rather than d4s being $0.02 and d20s being $0.06; which is why I went with the higher average price in my last example. But I forgot to mention that, oops, my bad).

I think, after years and years of experience importing manufactured goods from China through Ali Baba, that it is in fact a very safe assumption to say yes, the low price mentioned is the actual price, for each die, regardless of number of sides or color. So yes, $0.02/die.

Except, as mentioned, you still need to pay someone sort the dice.

You do not. They come packaged per your requirements, and the bag is a small plastic bag. There is either no extra charge for it, or a fraction of a cent. It's not shipped as just a box of stuff, they always package it per your requirements (and in fact customs doesn't like it if they don't).

And you need pay someone to package the dice in the boxes. Oh yeah, and you need boxes now, or some other type of specialty package to contain the dice.
So, no, it's not just $0.14.

Yes, but we were already talking about the boxed set. I am talking about just the dice. People constantly claim the dice themselves are expensive, and I am trying to put an end to that myth. And for some reason you have yet to explain, you're still defending the myth even after you know different. I don't get it. What is your motivation to try and tell people that adding dice is expensive when it's not? Even if the dice were a dollar, it's still not nearly as expensive as you were saying earlier.

Doing the math, making the box has to cost less than $4. Which means every cent counts. Dice are a luxury.

It's LESS THAN A BUCK. That's including the "rule of 5" to account for profit and overhead on those dice. In no way can anyone call that "expensive".

The rest was your opinion on who will buy the starter set, and I'd rather not get into that other than to say I disagree and let's leave it at that and see what happens when the game comes out.

 

[Jester David]

From earlier:

LOL why would Hasbro corporation buy dice retail? I linked to the actual manufacturer bulk wholesale prices. Do you have a link to anything saying that the cost to WOTC is what you claim?

Actually, I wasn't suggesting WotC buy retail, but pointing out that most dice retailers sell dice at $5+. So it seems likely that WotC would sell dice at a similar price point. So of the $20 product, $5 would be dice..

I think, after years and years of experience importing manufactured goods from China through Ali Baba, that it is in fact a very safe assumption to say yes, the low price mentioned is the actual price, for each die, regardless of number of sides or color. So yes, $0.02/die.

Then why have the range of prices?
Does this price also include shipping from China?

Yes, but we were already talking about the boxed set. I am talking about just the dice. People constantly claim the dice themselves are expensive, and I am trying to put an end to that myth. And for some reason you have yet to explain, you're still defending the myth even after you know different. I don't get it. What is your motivation to try and tell people that adding dice is expensive when it's not? Even if the dice were a dollar, it's still not nearly as expensive as you were saying earlier.

Nothing is expensive when you look at the manufacturing costs. The cost to print the 32-page booklets will also be under a dollar per book.
But costs add up.
It seems unlikely WotC will be able to put out a product at the same price as 4 years ago but with the same content, especially when they're asking 25% more for the PHB. Either content has to be removed or they lose money with every sale.

The rest was your opinion on who will buy the starter set, and I'd rather not get into that other than to say I disagree and let's leave it at that and see what happens when the game comes out.

It's been reported that back in the '80s the Red Box was marketed to new players but was primarily bought by experienced games while new players opted to buy the "real" game jumping right to AD&D.
I don't see that mindset changing. Youths seldom want a youth-orientated or simpler version, they want to be treated like adults and get the real thing. If there is the option for complexity they will take complexity.

 

[Mistwell]

From earlier:

Actually, I wasn't suggesting WotC buy retail, but pointing out that most dice retailers sell dice at $5+. So it seems likely that WotC would sell dice at a similar price point. So of the $20 product, $5 would be dice..

The question was: Are dice expensive for WOTC to add to the set. Not, what can they get if they were to go into the business of selling dice.

Then why have the range of prices?
Does this price also include shipping from China?

The range of prices is for smaller to larger runs. It's FOB China, but we already factors shipping and customs into the x5 price. But if you want to be precise, add 30% to the base cost for shipping from China port to Seattle port, customs, duty, port fee, port warehouse, and trucking from port warehouse to WOTC warehouse. So about $0.04 more per set of 7 dice. We're really not talking about a lot of money here.

Nothing is expensive when you look at the manufacturing costs.

Ha, on the contrary tons of stuff is! For example, I'm looking at solar panels and roof tiles from China, and they're expensive. It's just that this particular thing is cheap. It's a lump of poorly made plastic with some numbers on it, that takes up little space, and doesn't weigh much, and doesn't have a lot of precision to it. This thing is one of the cheap things.

The cost to print the 32-page booklets will also be under a dollar per book.

This is drifting the topic away from the dice again (and so was the rest that I cut).

I am trying to put to bed the claim that dice cost a lot to add to a set. For a company the size of WOTC, for this sort of dice and this size of order, they do not. It costs about $0.19 per set of 7 dice (all the sides including percentile), in a small bag, to their door. About a month of time or so. You want to add in some overhead and profit, go right ahead. At no point will you get to "expensive". It's going to be under $1, including a good profit margin.

I just want to get to the point where never again hear "Oh my, including a set of dice in a boxed set is soooo expensive, we can't do that it will boost the price of the set too much!" Enough of that. It's fair to round that price increase to the customer up to a single $1 bill for the dice part of that set.