D&D 5E Move Attack Move: Issues with The New Standard for Combat

[Sword of Spirit]

So it seems like adding a movement cost of 1 for each allied square passed through (and the inability to end in an occupied space as usual) should decrease the conga line effect while still permitting split movement.

This is the winner, I think. This is a simple extension of the "difficult terrain" rule, and would reduce the issue with the minimum complexity added to the rules.

"Moving through another creature's space counts as moving through difficult terrain."

One could almost make an argument that the currently vague rules for difficult terrain can already support that interpretation.

 

[Dausuul]

That dynamism changes things, though. If one duergar spring attacks, and then the mage lights off a fireball, the other duergar might do something different (like try ranged attacks against the mage, or take cover). If the next duergar still spring attacks, and then the thief takes out the third with a bow (which then misses its turn, sparing the fighter from a spring attack) and then the cleric heals up the fighter or buffs his defenses, and then the fourth duergar spring attacks again, that's a lot less of a "sit there while I beat the crap out of you" moment.

Either way, the fighter is still subject to melee attacks from the whole gang of enemies. Individual initiative would give the party more ways to deal with the conga line, but would not in any way change the fact that the conga line is the optimal tactic for the duergar.

Heck, if the fighter's reaction charged on each initiative character's turn (rather than on his own), that probably would have been enough to change the dynamics, regardless of the spring-attack-ness or ally terrain simplifications.

That would change everything. I count seven duergar on Mistwell's map who are in a position to attack (ten if you allow them to cut corners). If the fighter normally gets two attacks a round, but gets an OA for each opponent's turn, then the duergar attempting a conga line would increase the fighter's damage output by a factor of 4.5! Ouchie.

However, I really think the moving-through-allies thing is the place to look for a fix to this. Making allies hinder movement enhances the tactical depth of the game, especially from the PC point of view; since PCs are typically outnumbered by their foes, they will have a lot of opportunity to exploit this limitation, and won't suffer from it as much themselves. It's also much more realistic.

I like the "allies are difficult terrain" solution. Simple, intuitive, and it imposes enough of a cost on movement that the conga line becomes much more difficult to execute.

 

[Klaus]

We used a map, it was 100% grid based, they have a move of 30 (at least these did, and 30 is a common move in 5e), and they all had somewhere to go.

And with so many people saying they also have experienced this, I am not sure why you didn't just take my word for it.

If it will help, I believe this was the actual situation. I was trying to simplify it for purposes of discussion.

They did not all get to attack the fighter, I think it was about 7 or so that did, and then as some died reinforcements moved in to replace those who died. The party won anyway, and I was not saying this was necessarily a "problem", just that it changed how this battle happened, and tactics used, quite a lot.

Thanks for posting the map!

Yeah, that was a tough point to hold (it's less a corridor and more like a deep threshold). With Speed 30, all duergar (except those in the back ranks) could theoretically make a beeline through their allies, reach the fighter, attack, then retreat.

Personally, I'd rule that the duergar wouldn't run in and out, but would rather advance as a unit, with the front and second duergar attacking the fighter (the second would use a reach weapon), and keep pressuring the fighter or trying to push him into the room.

As a player, I'd throw some furniture or caltrops or something into the corridor, creating difficult terrain. That would prevent the duergar from getting in and out so easily.

And finally, yeah, I wouldn't be opposed to treating a square occupied by an ally as difficult terrain (meaning it cost extra movement to cross).

 

[tomBitonti]

Group initiative is not the problem.

Adding a cost to movement through an opponent helps somewhat, although, in tight areas, players might get bogged down, and anything which bogs down combat is usually a problem.

You could still get this problem with a slight modification. Sorry for the rough picture, but, consider:

"1", "2", "3", and "4" are party members; "F" is a fifty party member, who is the fighter. "D" are opponents. "X" are blocked spaces (filled with stone) and "_" are open floor.

XXXXXXXXXXXX
X_1_XXDD__XX
X_2_XX_DD_XX
X_3_F________
X_4_XX_DD_XX
X___XXDD__XX
XXXXXXXXXXXX

You don't see this often in 3E because spring attack is relatively rare, as are the circumstances where it works.

3E carefully crafted the Attack + Move + Attack-of-opportunity to make circular initiative produce a result somewhat similar to simultaneous initiative (and, as one result avoids this case). I think changing the A + M rule to two partial moves plus an attack breaks the basic design, and is a bad design choice.

Thx!

TomB

 

[Sunseeker]

BTW, and I am skipping a few pages of posts here, but wasn't in the past when you move-attacked-moved (or just moved through threat at all) that if you got hit with an OA, your movement ended?

 

[Ichneumon]

BTW, and I am skipping a few pages of posts here, but wasn't in the past when you move-attacked-moved (or just moved through threat at all) that if you got hit with an OA, your movement ended?

The last playtest rules stated that an OA interrupts movement, and that you can move through your allies' spaces, but not stop in them. I expect those rules to be there in the final game. Treating allies as difficult terrain sounds like a good idea.

 

[Mistwell]

BTW, and I am skipping a few pages of posts here, but wasn't in the past when you move-attacked-moved (or just moved through threat at all) that if you got hit with an OA, your movement ended?

It interrupts movement, so it happens just before they move. But unless you killed or knocked prone or otherwise stopped them, they then get to move once your opportunity attack is done.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Additional thoughts:

While I was originally thinking the game could have a rule declaring it difficult terrain, I'm thinking now that it works better as a ruling.

From the current rules: "When you encounter terrain you cannot move across normally, the DM adjudicates what happens. Most often, such an area is difficult terrain."

So bumping elbows and walls in dungeon corridors as difficult terrain? Absolutely. Running past your ally in an open field? Not so much.

I like the simplicity, and the fact that it's completely RAW and RAI to treat it as difficult terrain if the DM feels it is warranted.

As far as both the scene visualization and the actual effects on the game, I also find it satisfying. In the example, the fighter would be facing a maximum of 4 opponents (5 if the last one wanted to end next to the fighter). That's actually would fit my visualization of such a scene better.

The fighter stands right outside the doorway, attempting to block off the 5' wide hallway. Duergar, weapons drawn with sneers on their faces press into him en masse. Four of them are able to get close enough to make swings at him, while he takes a swipe at one of them. On his turn he moves forward take another swing or two, or holds his ground, ready to attack the first to come into range. His party lets spells and arrows fly at the duergar. Had there been open space, the duergar would also have been launching ranged attacks, and the party would have had more targets. Of course, the duergar's attacks may have targeted other party members also. The fighter is taking a real risk (depending on level) to defend his allies, and the feel of actually holding back a wave of opponents is there without a cheesy number of such opponents. I like this scene.

That's a lot more satisfying than what we are used to from previous editions, where one duergar moves into the 5' hallway, and everyone else stands politely behind him in a single file line waiting their turn to get chopped down by the fighter.

 

[Halivar]

It interrupts movement, so it happens just before they move. But unless you killed or knocked prone or otherwise stopped them, they then get to move once your opportunity attack is done.

I disagree with this interpretation.

The rules say a creature can continue its turn after a reaction (p.16, Your Turn - Reactions)*, but I consider the OA to be a more specific rule (p.16, Movement in Combat - Opportunity Attacks) in saying it interrupts movement right before the creature leaves your reach. Calling it an interruption indicates full stoppage, and movement is ended.

If I'm missing something somewhere else, let me know.

*References are from "How to Play" in the playtest packet released with GoDSC

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If I'm missing something somewhere else, let me know.

The Tactical Warrior feat gives, as a benefit, "When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, that creature must stop moving for the rest of the turn."