D&D 5E D&D Next Q&A: 03/28/2014

[MarkB]

It's not really an inherent flaw in the rules of 4e, but of how the rules were used to create the monster manual and the adventures. In other words, it's something you can relatively easily work around as a DM.

Typically you could:
- Use less solo monsters that where medium or smaller
- Don't scale traditional humanoid monsters that look the same at level 1 and level 15.
- Avoid using minions

This would give you a less gamey and more simulationist game if that's your thing. If you like your game to be gamey, sure just use everything as it is.

I guess it's a case of different expectations from the campaign world. I've never seen any reason why humanoid monsters should be less scaleable than playable humanoid races. If it's not surprising to see a level 15 elf or dwarf, then it shouldn't be surprising to see a level 15 kobold or goblin.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I have no problem with that as it mirrors reality. Why must every armor be balanced? I don't want to see a wet towel armor be given some arbitrary and questionable bonuses just so it is exactly as powerful as other armors in the game.

How much AC does a straw man have in wet towel armor?

Some armor is better than others - as far as the protection it offers. But that also comes at a price. Heavier (and thus, more protective) armor tends to have drawbacks other than just cost, it also tends to be more cumbersome. The problem with the armor chart they had in the last packet was that there only ended up really being a point to even having one type of armor per category, because it was better in every way than the other types of armor in its category. So the only thing that separates the armor types is cost. As soon as players can afford to upgrade to the best type of armor in the category they wear, they will, and save for plate armor, that's probably going to happen pretty quickly, if not after a single adventure. So why even have all of those other armor types in the game, if they become totally obsolete and there's absolutely no point in wearing them besides saving a little money?

I want there to be a point to wearing hide armor instead of scale mail, or chain mail instead of plate. There should be tradeoffs for taking the absolute best AC you can get. This also helps the game from a gameplay point of view. One of the problems in the game is the outrageously high AC scores that characters can achieve, making them almost invincible in a system with bounded accuracy. If there's a point to wearing some of the armor types that have lower AC scores, it helps to reign that in a bit. Not every heavy armor wearer might choose to wear plate. One might opt wear something with less penalties instead, sacrificing a point or two of AC for mobility. IMO, that should be a valid choice to make. Not, "LOL, you're level 3 and still wearing ring mail? What's wrong with you?"

 

[Derren]

As soon as players can afford to upgrade to the best type of armor in the category they wear, they will, and save for plate armor, that's probably going to happen pretty quickly, if not after a single adventure. So why even have all of those other armor types in the game, if they become totally obsolete and there's absolutely no point in wearing them besides saving a little money?

The bolded part is the problem. Especially as magic items are considered to be entirely optional in 5E, why should the PCs earn so much money and status that they can have the best mundane equipment right at the start?

 

[Falling Icicle]

The bolded part is the problem. Especially as magic items are considered to be entirely optional in 5E, why should the PCs earn so much money and status that they can have the best mundane equipment right at the start?

Most of the armors aren't that expensive. The very most expensive light and medium armors (since they're removing the exotic ones) are 10 gp and 50 gp, respectively. Only players with the most incredibly stingy DMs or playing in the most resource-scarce campaigns won't have 50 gp to spend by the time they're 2nd or 3rd level. With magic items being optional and not typically for sale, what else are players going to spend their money on? There are few things players can buy in 5e that directly increase their character's power. Armor is one of those things, and that means it's going to be very high on every character's shopping list. Aside from heavy armor wearers, most PCs are going to be wearing the very "best" type of armor within their armor category by the time they're out of the apprentice tier (which only is supposed to take a couple sessions of play). Since all of those other types of armors are rendered completely irrelevant after such a short period of time, I have to question what point there is in even having them in the game at all.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Magic items will be exceptionally rare in my games so I think what I am going to do is raise the GP amount of non magical gear to make it more appreciated and to give the players something to actually spend their money on.

 

[Derren]

Or make the rewards less ridiculous and give the PCs a bag full of copper with a few silver coins after a low level quest instead of coffers full of gold.

 

[Remathilis]

How much AC does a straw man have in wet towel armor?

Some armor is better than others - as far as the protection it offers. But that also comes at a price. Heavier (and thus, more protective) armor tends to have drawbacks other than just cost, it also tends to be more cumbersome. The problem with the armor chart they had in the last packet was that there only ended up really being a point to even having one type of armor per category, because it was better in every way than the other types of armor in its category. So the only thing that separates the armor types is cost. As soon as players can afford to upgrade to the best type of armor in the category they wear, they will, and save for plate armor, that's probably going to happen pretty quickly, if not after a single adventure. So why even have all of those other armor types in the game, if they become totally obsolete and there's absolutely no point in wearing them besides saving a little money?

I want there to be a point to wearing hide armor instead of scale mail, or chain mail instead of plate. There should be tradeoffs for taking the absolute best AC you can get. This also helps the game from a gameplay point of view. One of the problems in the game is the outrageously high AC scores that characters can achieve, making them almost invincible in a system with bounded accuracy. If there's a point to wearing some of the armor types that have lower AC scores, it helps to reign that in a bit. Not every heavy armor wearer might choose to wear plate. One might opt wear something with less penalties instead, sacrificing a point or two of AC for mobility. IMO, that should be a valid choice to make. Not, "LOL, you're level 3 and still wearing ring mail? What's wrong with you?"

There are two problems going on here: Traditionally armor got better as it got heavier, but was balanced by its expense. Knights wore plate armor because they could afford the best armor; peasants wore padded because they could build it out of whatever was available. While such a logical concept works in a game of limited funds must equip armies, PCs in D&D have always been gravitated to the best armor affordable (since they often have coin equal to or exceeding free-men or nobles).

To be honest, I'd almost just go with something akin to 4e's armors: Leather, Hide, Chain, Scale, Plate. They represent the best armors PCs get anyway, so why fill the chart with filler armor like padded, ring or banded that no one buys anyway?

Magic items will be exceptionally rare in my games so I think what I am going to do is raise the GP amount of non magical gear to make it more appreciated and to give the players something to actually spend their money on.

Or give them other things to spend their GP on: ships, castles, mercenaries, retainers, social engagements, and taxes, taxes, taxes...

Or make the rewards less ridiculous and give the PCs a bag full of copper with a few silver coins after a low level quest instead of coffers full of gold.

Next already lowers the reward amounts. Be careful or you'll have 5th level PCs running around with a rusty dagger, a couple suits of studded leather claimed off of hobgoblins, and 47 coppers each.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Or make the rewards less ridiculous and give the PCs a bag full of copper with a few silver coins after a low level quest instead of coffers full of gold.

I tried to run a game like that once back in 3.5... it didn't go so well...not horrible but not great

I started with kobolds only having "rusty" "Small" weapons and each carring 1d4 cp on them, then we moved on to gobilns with 1d6-1 sp on each then orcs with 2d4 sp on each and finally hobgoblins with 1d4gp on them... each quest was them being hired for a few coins (sometime 10sp each sometimes 2-3gp each).

The problem was when I put the +1 long sword in the game they sold it for 1,157 gp and split it 5 ways (230gp each the 57 went toward buying a hireling...) then they asked in a world were adventures such as them selves take contracts for 2-3 gp for a 2 day assignment could they hire mercs themselves if so they could each hire 5 1st level PCs each for 2 adventures... and go into business for themselves...

it was kinda fun but it turned more into merchants and machinations then Dungeons and Dragons...

 

[Blackbrrd]

I guess it's a case of different expectations from the campaign world. I've never seen any reason why humanoid monsters should be less scaleable than playable humanoid races. If it's not surprising to see a level 15 elf or dwarf, then it shouldn't be surprising to see a level 15 kobold or goblin.

Sure, you can run into a named level 15 kobold, but that's not 4e does. It gives you a generic level 15 monstrous humanoid that you can use by the score. Which is what I would be trying to avoid if I wanted some semblance of progression as you level up.

At level 15, I would think that Giants would be good opponents, or maybe beholders or Mind Flayers. Meeting generic level 15 kobolds just doesn't do it for me. (I am also assuming any level 15 dwarves or elves I run into are named)

I do think we might be in agreement here though.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I never really liked the fact that there was a "getting to know you" period at the beginning of most fights in both 3e and 4e where PCs would hold back their good attacks because they'd want to measure the skill of their enemies, get an idea of their capabilities and their tactics and then finally defeat them. Most of the time it only ended up making the battle take longer.

I was a big fan of this. Otherwise you're playing rocket tag. Waiting a bit meant you could learn more about your enemies and then fashion tactics to beat them. I wasn't the biggest fan of "victory before you touch the dice" (eg scry/buff/port strategies, etc) but I might be in the minority here.