D&D 5E What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" attitude?

[Derren]

Okay, we're talking about XP and advancement here, though, where varying it is literally the easiest thing a DM can do.

But it doesn't stop there.
Remember skill challenges? They were introduced, among other things, so you had a guideline how many XP to give for non combat stuff. Without the need for having a specific, balanced XP gain skill challenges would not have been needed or would have looked very different (DC scaled to level concept). The amount of goodies you get at levelup (no more empty levels!) is also part of that which, in turn, shapes the expectation and desires of the players (see thread title).

When gaining XP and leveling is the goal of the system, then the system is written in a way to steer the players towards actions that give XP. And everything that does not give XP plays second fiddle and will get less tools and advice in the rules. Also, any published adventure in such a system will revolve around situations that give XP and disregard anything which doesn't (See Hussars 40 minute of fun comment).

For comparison, imagine a system where gaining money is the focus of the system (because the developers thought that everyone likes to amass riches and made that the center of the system). Compared to D&D the mercantile aspect would be a lot more pronounced and you had a much more detailed system about earning money, through quest and side activities and also more guidelines and advise about spending money, not only on equipment but also bribes, etc. Even character advancement would be primarily done with money (gear and training).

 

[Obryn]

Whereas I won't bother using a game engine where I have to amputate what is to me such a critical subsystem. If the engine assumptions of a particular game are too far removed from what I am looking for in a game, I choose a different engine.

Oh, how about a poll?

 

[Hussar]

Again, I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong. Wrong for me, yup, but, not wrong. If you want to play at X pace, more power to you.

And, let's face it, slowing down pacing is about the easiest thing you can do. As Forever Slayer said, you simply engage in activities that aren't really related to resolving any challenges. Where I differ, is the idea that challenge automatically means combat, but, Forever Slayer's assumptions aren't really all that important to me. I try not to make too many assumptions about how other people play.

But, let me break it down this way. [MENTION=44640]bill[/MENTION]91 and I and others some time ago discussed making a pirate captain with a fighter in 3.5 DnD. It took about 7 levels. That was the general consensus anyway.

So, for me, where I like about a 2:1 ratio - about 15 hours of play per level - that means I'd play about 90 hours before achieving that archetype. Which seems perfectly fine for me. I can create a detailed and deep character (at least, deep enough to satisfy me) in 90 hours of play.

Now, in a 1:3 campaign, at 40 hours per level, that same archetype takes 240 hours to achieve. So, what am I supposed to do for the 150 hours of play? I am pretty happy with my depth and whatnot after 90 hours, but, now I'm spinning my wheels for the next 150 hours?

For some people, that's perfectly fine. They're happy with the slower pace. For me, I find it boring and tedious.

 

[Celebrim]

Celebrim otoh would take twenty sessions or eighty hours of play.

Says who? Why do you get to speak for me?

Now does anyone here think it should take eighty hours to play through Whispering Cairn?

No. I haven't played it, but I've played comparably complex low level modules ('Of Sound Mind') and it took ~30 hours despite 10-15 extra encounters added into it. I have a hard time imagining that Whispering Cairn, which I own, would take significantly longer than my play through of 'Of Sound Mind'.

Where you continue to interject something I never said is that I don't play half as fast. I never said that, though I admit that I don't mind spending 3 of 4 hours on RP rather than challenges. No, I just prefer to level about half as fast (although if I was on a published adventure path, that option would probably be closed to me without significant rewriting). Twice as many things happen to you per level. There is twice as much story before obtaining level X. As for story or character development, that depends on what the group decides to do with it and how much time they spend playing out conversations as opposed to 'doing challenges that earn XP'. I have never felt that conversations were the boring part of playing. Many of my best memories of play didn't involve throwing the dice. But different groups have different levels of tolerance for thespianism and melodrama.

I and others some time ago discussed making a pirate captain with a fighter in 3.5 DnD. It took about 7 levels.

??? Ok, I'm going to reference my rules, but any references to my rules could easily be replaced with RAW 3.5

PC: "Lets play pirates!"
Me: Ok, sure.

1st level: You play a 1st level Explorer and take ranks in boating, navigation, survival, etc. Your party also has a 1st level Elf Rogue, a 1st level Cleric of Nauti the Storm Lord, and a 1st level Wizard Air Elementalist. The party pools their leftover money to buy a small leaky used lugger from a fisherman that wants a better boat, and you go board and rob small merchant vessels with your merry crew in my ocean sandbox.

2nd level: You've now stolen a small sloop from a intracoastal merchant or fisherman as the climax of your adventures as a 1st level pirate. You recruit a dozen likely hireling cutthroats from a free and tolerant port - mostly 1st level non-elite explorers and experts - promising them 1 s.p. per day, food and grog, and a 1/100th part share in the treasure, plus the normal mutilation and death benefits expected of the pirate code. You are now a pirate captain, and addressed as such by your crew. We're probably just 20-30 hours into play at this point, with the expectation of gradually slowing down slightly as more plots develop and more encounters are below party level.

3rd level: You've managed to obtain a number of military grade maulers and a pair of ballista which you mount on your sloop, giving you some minimal ship to ship combat capability - augmented as needed by the cleric and wizards growing firepower.

4th level: You upgrade to a large sloop, and are now mounting 8 ballista. You increase your crew of cut throats to three dozen, and more veteran hirelings are willing to risk your command including a couple able to serve as petty officers (2nd level mariners), an experienced bosun (3rd level mariner), a master carpenter with a shady past (3rd level expert), and a rascally ship's cook (2nd level rogue). The ship's cook turns out to have contacts with local smugglers, and enables you to find a fence who belongs to the League of the Painted Lady.

5th level: Some of your original hirelings are now second level veterans in their own right, and demand a raise or promotion. Your deeds attract the attention of the local sovereign, and a large price is put on your head. You manage to win a duel with a naval cutter sent to hunt you down, and take it as your prize. You now have a fast 12 engine ship with military grade armor that could hold a crew of 60. You turn the large sloop over to the NPC who has been with your band the longest, proclaim him captain and have him swear fealty to you. You use the sloop now mostly as a cargo carrier and to help trap and corner fleeing ships. You are now a pirate commodore.

6th level: You and your crew now have developed a fearsome reputation. Ordinary merchants surrender at the mere sight of your flag. People recognize you by description unless you disguise yourself. The common folk give you a romantic title. Other pirate captains mark you as a rival or potential ally. The King commands one of his most loyal knights to outfit a corvette to seek you out. Other rival kings consider offering you a letter of marque and safe harbor in their ports if you'll turn your terror on their enemies. They seek to give you audiences or send their emissaries and spies to see if you are a potentially worthy vassal.

7th level: You are now one of the most powerful pirate captains over a wide region. You pledge allegiance to an attractive lord whose lovely daughter turns your eye, and accept a letter of marque. You are knighted. With your own loot, the permission of the sovereign, and the investment of wealthy patrons, you are able to purchase and equip a full frigate of 32 engines, including 12 light mangonels. You have a crew of 270 bloodthirsty cutthroats who call you Captain. The ranks of your junior officers include loyal hirelings that have stuck with you since the beginning, and young outcast members and bastards of local noble houses seeking a start on their fortunes. You have three smaller vessels serving as your scouts with captains who have sworn fealty to you. In total, you mount 56 siege engines across your fleet. You are now a sizable naval power in your own right, and capable of terrorizing smaller coastal towns, reducing smaller forts and castles, and defeating the most heavily armed treasure vessels, galleons, and merchantmen. Proceed from there.

I'm not sure I don't deliver faster than those that level faster than I do. Really, other than the Explorer class - which is pretty incidental - all of that can be delivered RAW plus some naval supplements (which I don't need, since I wrote rules for naval warfare back in 1e). Hirelings and retainers are pretty standard D&D fare, and it breaks no rules to let PC's recruit them.

*Celebrim sings, "Let it go. Let it go!", and tries again to ignore that people are talking about him.*

 

[Hussar]

Says who? Why do you get to speak for me?

Says you. You are the one who talked about ten sessions per level. Are you saying that's mistaken?

Oh and I did say I wanted to play a fighter. But that's ok. I wouldn't want to stop you from telling your players what class they should play.

 

[Erik Mona]

Should? That depends on the group playing it. There are ample opportunities for PCs to head back to Diamond Lake and interact with the people there while playing through this adventure. They're built right in. Not every group is going to use them the same way, though, and that's perfectly fine. Erik's adventure works well for any number of approaches.

I haven't read the whole thread, but the adventure can be played at lots of different speeds. I know people who have focused mostly on the dungeon crawl aspect and have played it at a convention. Alternatively, I know groups that took numerous sessions to make it through the dungeon, going in and out and interacting with side plots and stuff. Like mine, for instance.

Adventures are tools. GMs need to tailor them to their own tastes, which includes pacing issues.

 

[pemerton]

Remember skill challenges? They were introduced, among other things, so you had a guideline how many XP to give for non combat stuff. Without the need for having a specific, balanced XP gain skill challenges would not have been needed or would have looked very different

Huh? There are no XP in Maelstrom Storytelling or Burning Wheel, but there extended conflict systems still look very similar to skill challenges.

if players are wanting more leveling more often it's because they're not into the other parts of the game that they may find more interesting.

When you put it like that it stands to reason, doesn't it?

 

[Umbran]

*Celebrim sings, "Let it go. Let it go!", and tries again to ignore that people are talking about him.*

To steal a phrase from older theater - "The poster doth protest too much, methinks."

If you want to ignore it, then actually ignore it, rather than make a public point about it. You two argue like an old married couple.

 

[Umbran]

Oh and I did say I wanted to play a fighter.

Seems to me it is part of the GM's job to point out when players are trying to fit square pegs in round holes. Classes are hopefully flexible, but they are not infinitely malleable. You want to play a role that is known for being highly skilled, but you want to do it with the class that is noted for having few skill options? If you ignore the point when raised, you lose the right to gripe that getting the skills you wanted takes a long, long time.

 

[Umbran]

When you put it like that it stands to reason, doesn't it?

Only if "interest" is a limited resource. As if you cannot be interested in multiple things?

I suggest, instead, that this is creating a false dichotomy.