Pushing the 4th edition envelope

[Uller]

After the first D&D Next playtest came out (and my son absolutely loved it compared to 4e since it moved so much faster) my group made a few changes to 4e similar to what you've done.

- Cut monster hp to 33%
- Introduced a "veteran" monster between standard and Elites that had normal HP, these were worth 50% more XP
- Cut PC surges by 1/3, round up
- Eliminated action points

We played through Thunderspire Labyrinth using these rules and it worked great. Things moved much much faster and felt a lot more "old-school". Players no longer felt the need to maximize the use of encounter powers and instead defaulted to basic/at-will attacks in the opening round to scout out the enemy.

 

[pemerton]

If I had my way I would divorce resource replenishment from something that happens automatically to something that is earned in the scope of play.

<snip>

I'd like to implement abilities that depend on a player taking thematically appropriate actions (most likely based on class and sub build) in order to make use of their more powerful abilities. I haven't done a lot of design work here, but if I was going to make a 4e Fantasy Heartbreaker that would be my focus.

I'm pretty sure that [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] has done a fair bit of work along these lines for his 4e hack.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

Many of the other games that I like (Burning Wheel, Demon: The Descent, Blood and Smoke, FATE) have resource and reward systems that require players to take risks with their characters in order to replenish their resources. I'd like to implement abilities that depend on a player taking thematically appropriate actions (most likely based on class and sub build) in order to make use of their more powerful abilities. I haven't done a lot of design work here, but if I was going to make a 4e Fantasy Heartbreaker that would be my focus.

Another idea for combat in particular is to have a resource that builds on turn by turn basis so that as combat moves forward it actually gets more interesting, rather than less.

Spellbound Kingdoms (see here for free Combat Primer) has an interesting take on this. It focuses on sequences of moves to build up for the "good" stuff, so it absolutely requires actions from the player to enable better attack. I acutally don't have an idea how to marry this to the 4e framework, but you may find it an interesting read.

 

[LostSoul]

If I had my way I would divorce resource replenishment from something that happens automatically to something that is earned in the scope of play. Many of the other games that I like (Burning Wheel, Demon: The Descent, Blood and Smoke, FATE) have resource and reward systems that require players to take risks with their characters in order to replenish their resources. I'd like to implement abilities that depend on a player taking thematically appropriate actions (most likely based on class and sub build) in order to make use of their more powerful abilities. I haven't done a lot of design work here, but if I was going to make a 4e Fantasy Heartbreaker that would be my focus.

I have done some work here but probably not in the vein you're likely to go down. Most classes recover their daily resource by spending some other kind of resource - time or gold. (I have some other stuff that makes time a solid resource instead of fluffy DM-handwavium.) Warlocks are the most interesting as they have to perform their "pact obligation" but it's kind of disruptive in play (focusing on one PC/player at a time).

My design intent was to get the PCs (and thus the players) to connect to the setting and NPCs, have the NPCs deliver rumours (how the PCs have changed the setting), and make the choice of class more flavourful. I'm not very happy with how most of that has worked out - only the last item really works. Otherwise it's just a tax as the other elements already occur in the course of the game.

I'm not really sure how to proceed now.

 

[chaochou]

If I had my way I would divorce resource replenishment from something that happens automatically to something that is earned in the scope of play. Many of the other games that I like (Burning Wheel, Demon: The Descent, Blood and Smoke, FATE) have resource and reward systems that require players to take risks with their characters in order to replenish their resources. I'd like to implement abilities that depend on a player taking thematically appropriate actions.

That sounds like a feasible goal to me. In terms of implementation it means drawing up a list of 'thematically appropriate actions'. Of course, my list and your list (might / will) look very different but that just means we each draw up our own and don't argue about whose is 'right'

Also, in designing such a list one is essentially designing 'goals' for the PCs and doing that creates much of the content of the game. If I reward gold with power replenishment, the game becomes dependent on gold, whereas if I reward discovery of ancient libraries with power replenishment the game becomes about finding libraries!

For me, though, I might go for things like:

Defeat a dangerous opponent one on one with no help (Fighter)
Overcome a challenge with a feat of impressive physical prowess (Fighter)
Return with valuable information about the enemy (Ranger)
Navigate a dangerous path or route (Ranger)
Resolve a dangerous situation with your wits (Wizard)
Discover a new source of knowledge or Lore (Wizard)
Rally new support to your cause (Priest)
Smite an avowed enemy of your God (Priest)
Profit from someone else's misfortune (Rogue)
Neutralise a threat without revealing yourself (Rogue)

Those are the kind of versatile and fairly open-ended 'actions' I'd be giving players as the means to regain resources. Maybe 3 per player. I could see some playing out as mini skill challenges, with only one PC involved.

Which I think is a point @LostSoul raised - incorporating this into 'party-based' or 'teamwork' play (which isn't required so much in BW, FATE) may require some finesse.

 

[LostSoul]

I think there are some interesting design questions here, starting off with this being a DM pacing choice vs. a player choice.

For example, in my game the pacing is mainly player-driven. Let's assume the PCs went to some nearby adventuring site, spent a number of their daily powers, and have come back to town to recover them. The PCs hear about some strange cloaked figures who have moved into Farmer Neb's barn. Now the players have to decide if they want to go and check it out right away or take some time to recover their resources - especially wizards, who take a long time to get back their spells. Those cloaked figures might be nothing major or they might be spies from an NPC "lair" (an organization which is probably trouble for the PCs).

So there's a player choice there. Probably not the same kind of choice that you'd be aiming for; I'm just using it an an illustration.

I guess DM pacing choices might be more along the lines of player flags - the player's telling the DM that he wants to be put into situations where there's a chance to fulfil this resource recovery trigger. Maybe something like Keys from the Shadow of Yesterday would be something to look at - each PC has a few ways to trigger their resource recovery (I'd probably base them on Paragon Path choices); the DM creates situations where the player has to decide which trigger to take.

In this case the player is making a choice, but it's more of a thematic choice instead of a pacing choice, if that makes any sense.

(I guess you could also tie each specific daily power to different triggers as well. There are a bunch of ways to do it.)

 

[Manbearcat]

My 2nd 4e game has come to a close and I don't want to get too "hackey" with the solo PBP I'm running. However, if and when I run another 4e game, I'm considering an alternative to my home game Healing Surge economy I wrote on upthread.

Its basically a 4e Doom Pool (a la MHRP).

- During any d20 resolution in a Skill Challenge or combat, a player can elect to spend a Healing Surge to gain a 2nd d20. However, on a roll of 5 or less on this 2nd d20, the GM gains a d6. When this occurs, the GM should narrate some potential complication or some impending threat that indicates the stakes have immediately changed or that there is something ominous and unforeseen lurking.

- One (and only one) dice from the GM's pool may be added to any active (eg an attack roll) or passive (eg a DC) opposition that the GM employs against the PCs. When this is deployed, the GM should either activate the complication/threat (if its in the same scene where the dice is earned) that initiated the acquisition of the dice or, if deployed in a later scene, create a relevant, thematic complication that would naturally arise from the fictional positioning of this scene.

- On any subsequent 5 or less on a players 2nd d20, the GM can opt to either step up one of the dice (assuming they have one) in their pool (eg from d6 > d8) or may add another d6 to their pool. A GM may want to do this to load up a big dice for a climactic conflict later. As the dice grows, both the players and their characters should sense the dread of its deployment in play. It could be a sense of foreboding dread, the tide turning against them, or something great and powerful on the horizon.

 

[LostSoul]

Its basically a 4e Doom Pool (a la MHRP).

That sounds like a logical extension of how you run 4E. I'm not sure about the specifics - maybe they should be a little more 4E-ish? creating status effects/refreshing resources? - but I think it's a great idea.

*

I've been playing my 4E hack lately and it's grown pretty distant from 4E, so this might not be of much interest.

I've removed the 1/2 level bonus from everything. This seems to work well in my hack; I wonder if you could do the same in regular 4E?

I did this in my hack to reward player skill - you can get some bonus dice based on your action - but, if possible in 4E, what would the results be? I imagine that lower-level monsters would provide more of a threat, because defences would be lower.

 

[chaochou]

I guess DM pacing choices might be more along the lines of player flags - the player's telling the DM that he wants to be put into situations where there's a chance to fulfil this resource recovery trigger. Maybe something like Keys from the Shadow of Yesterday would be something to look at - each PC has a few ways to trigger their resource recovery (I'd probably base them on Paragon Path choices); the DM creates situations where the player has to decide which trigger to take.

I don't know if you were replying to me in this post, but I think the list I threw out as 'recharges' was quite similar to keys from TSoY and Lady Blackbird.

 

[LostSoul]

I don't know if you were replying to me in this post, but I think the list I threw out as 'recharges' was quite similar to keys from TSoY and Lady Blackbird.

You got me thinking about things. Your post made me realize that you can't have resource refreshing from actions that the PCs would take in the normal course of adventuring; it needs to be a choice.

I think that your "triggers" ask for a player choice in most circumstances, but I think you'd want to work a little more so that the choice isn't so obvious in other circumstances. (And I'd probably tie them to Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies instead of class.)