D&D 5E The new Dungeons & Dragons Starter Set - and online tools?

[Majoru Oakheart]

They could have put character creation in it and retained the $20 price tag. You can buy a complete role-playing game that's a couple of hundred pages long for $20-25.

It's possible. But there's also a couple hundred pages long complete role-playing games out there for free. So, they COULD put it out completely free. They won't. They have a bottom line to maintain and someone at WOTC figured out that with the amount of art in the books, the cost for the last couple of years of R&D, the cost of the printing, the cardboard box, the dice, the maps, etc...that a 64 page book and a 32 page book for about $20 is what they can afford to do.

If they had to significantly increase the page count, they'd likely need more art to fill those pages so they'd have to pay more artists. They'd need more editing and someone would have to spend more time on writing, therefore increasing the cost. They'd also be including more of their precious R&D, increasing the perceived value of the books. Companies like WOTC are very concerrned about perceived value. If you price something much lower than its perceived value then the market begins to expect products of similar cost to value ratio.

It's the same reason that the movie industry is fighting so hard to make sure downloads of movies cost $15 instead of $2. They could release them at $2 and still make money and everyone would love it. But then people would lower the value of a movie to $2 in their minds. They would begin questioning why they would ever pay for a $20 DVD when they can download a movie for $2. They'd begin questioning why they would go see a movie for $15 in theaters when they can wait and download it for $2. Then the industry makes considerably less profit.

On the other hand, if they use their power to make sure everyone HAS to charge $15 for movie downloads then everyone has to make a value judgement between a $20 DVD and a $15 download.

This is a similar situation. It's possible for them to put out the entire PHB for $15. Printing likely costs less than that. They may even get the art in for that price as well. But there will be almost no profit and everyone will expect all books to be 320 pages for $15 from now on. The only way they can maintain that and likely pay their staff is to put out two or three books a month just to try to squeeze as much money out of people as possible.

On the other hand, if they release a book that costs $50 every two months, they can fulfill their goal of avoiding some of the rules bloat of previous editions while still keeping the lights on.

 

[ExploderWizard]

It's been 8 years since I ran a home made game, and 50% of my players over the years played characters pregenerated by other players! and it didn't changed the core D&D experience for us.

The hyperboles in this thread are quite amusing, keep me from having to listen during lectures, keep it up guys!

Warder

Good to know that expecting tools to use in a game supposedly about unlocking your imagination is regarded as hyperbolic now. Its not as if ready to run content isn't welcomed. It should be supplemental to the foundations of the basic game (which is to make stuff up) instead of replacing it.

Next I suppose comes the 'you are not the target audience bit'.

Those that rationalize the contents of a starter set as such should think about what they are actually saying.

The starter set is not for people who like to make up stuff they think will be fun.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

It is certainly an rpg session, but if there is no way to generate characters and create your own adventures (even very limited ones for a couple levels) then it FAILS to deliver the core D&D experience which is simply:

1)Players generate characters

My very first game of D&D was on a message board on a BBS where I was told that I was playing one of the Companions of the Lance from Dragonlance. I had no idea what I was doing or what any of the numbers on my character sheet meant but I was given a premade because the DM didn't want to explain character creation to me and didn't think it was necessary. My first real life D&D session, I was handed one of the other PCs characters because they didn't want to have to go through character creation with me. They made up a character and I got to take over theirs.

I had been playing for weeks before they'd consider letting me make up my own characters. Even then I was guided through the process in a way that made no sense to me at all:

"What race do you want to be?"
"Race? What do you mean? Like Elf?"
"Yes, which one of these?"
"I don't know...what do they all do?"
"Don't worry about that, just pick one that sounds interesting...you'll figure it out as you go."
"Uhh...Drow then, they are black elves?"
"Yes. So, write down exactly what I say on your character sheet. You get a +1 to Dex....."

By the end, I had a piece of paper with random text all over the place that made no sense to me at all. I looked at that sheet years later and wondered what the heck I was thinking. But I knew nowhere near enough about the game to make up my own character without their help until after I had played for months.

2) DM creates an adventure the players can play through.

I haven't run an adventure I've created myself in...years. I've ran entirely adventures I've bought or downloaded from some place or another. Your implication appears to be that I'm not playing D&D. Which I take to be rather insulting. Maybe your way of playing isn't the only one.

As for the Starter Set. Everything we've heard says that the book contains enough DM information to come up with new adventures after running the one in the book...or not running the one in the book at all. So, it fulfills that part.

Thats it really. If the job could get done 34 years ago in 64 pages there is no good excuse for not being able to do so now with 100 or so pages.

The rules have become quite a bit more complicated in the last 34 years. The rules back then were "Elf;+4 to hit for 1d8 damage;12 hp;ac 8". Great, I made a character take one line and built it in about a minute.

5e's rules are not that simple. You need to choose a race, a class, a background, spells, equipment, class features, bonds, traits, flaws. For each of those categories, you need at least a couple of choices for it to be considered "creation".

Just imagine the uproar about how much of a trailer the Starter Set was if there was ONLY 2 choices for background: "That's not really character creation. That's simply a preview of all the backgrounds that will be in the FULL product." Or if there were no choices for class features and choosing a class automatically gave you abilities with no customization. People would be going on about how those are just glorified premades.

In the D&D of the past, there were a lot less rules so they took up less space. There were no skills, there were almost no class or race options, there were no "conditions", art was often small and sparse. A lot of stuff that exists in a modern RPG were not in those books so they could take up less space and cost less. We don't live in that era anymore.

Pregen gen characters and a spoon fed one and done adventure is a trailer not a game.

And yet, people sign up for games at conventions all over the place to play precisely this sort of game. There are likely hundreds or thousands of "premade character, spoon fed one and done adventure" sessions at GenCon this year.

I know people who do this outside of conventions as well. They have a good idea for an adventure and give everyone premades to get quicker into the game(and to provide the PCs with backgrounds that work well together with each other and the plot of the adventure). They finish the adventure and move on to a different game.

It's self contained, but I certainly wouldn't call it "not a game".

 

[ExploderWizard]

My very first game of D&D was on a message board on a BBS where I was told that I was playing one of the Companions of the Lance from Dragonlance. I had no idea what I was doing or what any of the numbers on my character sheet meant but I was given a premade because the DM didn't want to explain character creation to me and didn't think it was necessary. My first real life D&D session, I was handed one of the other PCs characters because they didn't want to have to go through character creation with me. They made up a character and I got to take over theirs.

I had been playing for weeks before they'd consider letting me make up my own characters. Even then I was guided through the process in a way that made no sense to me at all:

"What race do you want to be?"
"Race? What do you mean? Like Elf?"
"Yes, which one of these?"
"I don't know...what do they all do?"
"Don't worry about that, just pick one that sounds interesting...you'll figure it out as you go."
"Uhh...Drow then, they are black elves?"
"Yes. So, write down exactly what I say on your character sheet. You get a +1 to Dex....."

By the end, I had a piece of paper with random text all over the place that made no sense to me at all. I looked at that sheet years later and wondered what the heck I was thinking. But I knew nowhere near enough about the game to make up my own character without their help until after I had played for months.

So because those that taught you how to play didn't teach you the basics of character creation, its ok that the starter set leave it out for new players today?

I haven't run an adventure I've created myself in...years. I've ran entirely adventures I've bought or downloaded from some place or another. Your implication appears to be that I'm not playing D&D. Which I take to be rather insulting. Maybe your way of playing isn't the only one.

As for the Starter Set. Everything we've heard says that the book contains enough DM information to come up with new adventures after running the one in the book...or not running the one in the book at all. So, it fulfills that part.

How to create your own game content is part of the core D&D experience. It doesn't mean that if you use premade content then you ARE NOT playing D&D. You don't have to make up your own stuff to be playing the game but the game is only a pale shadow of actual D&D if the rulebooks didn't tell you how to do so.

The rules have become quite a bit more complicated in the last 34 years. The rules back then were "Elf;+4 to hit for 1d8 damage;12 hp;ac 8". Great, I made a character take one line and built it in about a minute.

5e's rules are not that simple. You need to choose a race, a class, a background, spells, equipment, class features, bonds, traits, flaws. For each of those categories, you need at least a couple of choices for it to be considered "creation".

Who says the starter set has to include all the options? It is just a basic starter. If you can generate stats, choose a class, name your character, and buy equipment it satisfies character creation. How much room would that take?

Just imagine the uproar about how much of a trailer the Starter Set was if there was ONLY 2 choices for background: "That's not really character creation. That's simply a preview of all the backgrounds that will be in the FULL product." Or if there were no choices for class features and choosing a class automatically gave you abilities with no customization. People would be going on about how those are just glorified premades.

In the D&D of the past, there were a lot less rules so they took up less space. There were no skills, there were almost no class or race options, there were no "conditions", art was often small and sparse. A lot of stuff that exists in a modern RPG were not in those books so they could take up less space and cost less. We don't live in that era anymore.

All that mechanical wankery is extra gravy that can wait for the full game. Pre-defined class features are fine for a basic intro. Of course the full game will have more.

And yet, people sign up for games at conventions all over the place to play precisely this sort of game. There are likely hundreds or thousands of "premade character, spoon fed one and done adventure" sessions at GenCon this year.

I know people who do this outside of conventions as well. They have a good idea for an adventure and give everyone premades to get quicker into the game(and to provide the PCs with backgrounds that work well together with each other and the plot of the adventure). They finish the adventure and move on to a different game.

It's self contained, but I certainly wouldn't call it "not a game".

What you are referring to is a play experience NOT a purchase. When you pay to see a movie at the theater are you buying a copy to watch whenever you want?

Its the same for a game at a Convention. You are playing an actual game but you are not purchasing one. How would you feel if you bought a board game that you really enjoyed, but after playing it once you were informed that in order to keep playing you had to buy an add-on that amounts to the cost of 15 copies of the game you already have?

 

[Riley]

Mike Mearls' goals, as of Jan. 2013:

Here's a bullet-point list of the goals for "The Basic Rules":

• Easy to learn, especially for new players and DMs. In an ideal world, a group of new players can pick up the game in about the same time it takes to learn a board game such as Settlers of Catan. The basic rules are at the forefront of recruiting new players, whether they're 10-year-olds trying their first RPGs or DMs coming back to the game after 10 years away. Adult D&D fans should feel that this is the best way to bring their kids into the games.
• Focuses on what makes RPGs unique (imaginative play, lack of limits, unbounded possibilities, and the fun and random stories about the game that groups share).
• Quick to start play, whether creating characters, reading an adventure, or rolling up a dungeon.
• Teaches DMs how to make rulings and use the core mechanic to resolve anything that comes up in play.
• Quick to play, with complete adventures playable in an hour. A group should be able to complete a simple dungeon with five or six rooms in that time span. Obviously, you can build bigger dungeons for longer sessions, but it's important to reduce complexity and therefore reduce the minimum time needed to play an adventure. A quick start time and fast play are key to recruiting new D&D fans and making the game accessible for people with ever busier, hectic lives.
• In terms of a product, you could imagine something along the lines of a set that covers levels 1 to 10 and includes an adventure of the size and scope of Temple of Elemental Evil. Keep in mind, though, that our specific product plans aren't close to being done, but the example gets at the scope of what we'd like to do.

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130114

I guess the conclusion to draw is that the 'Starter Set' is not quite equivalent to "The Basic Rules" previously discussed. Assuming these Basic Rules still exist, I'd guess they'll have to either be in the PHB along with the 'Core Rules', and/or in some kind of electronic form.

Obviously there is some kind of electronic plan in the works. But I would love to have an actual, physical release of just "The Basic Rules." I hope they will make one, so I can buy it. Not because I won't buy the PHB/MM/DMG (preordered already), but simply because I want a very portable little book which will not intimidate my wife and children in the way that 960 pages will/has.

 

[the Jester]

Yeah. That one.

I'm still wondering what the difference is between five levels of pregens and B/X rules where you had zero choices during chargen.

This sounds a lot like "All early-D&D fighters are the same" to me. While there is something to that, in that early fighters were mechanically simple, I don't think you'll find many people who played (or still play) early D&D who would agree with you.

You didn't have zero choices during chargen in the old days. You had plenty of choices. And the difference is that you made them, rather than having them made for you. You chose what to do with your stats (whether arranging your rolls, modifying stats in Basic, point buy for those who want it, etc), your race, your class, your gear, your name and background, etc.

I don't think your description of early D&D chargen matches my experience with it.

 

[Kinak]

I guess the conclusion to draw is that the 'Starter Set' is not quite equivalent to "The Basic Rules" previously discussed. Assuming these Basic Rules still exist, I'd guess they'll have to either be in the PHB along with the 'Core Rules', and/or in some kind of electronic form.

Yeah, it's a shame, because "The Basic Rules" are all that I was looking forward to. Now that they've vanished, I'm not sure if I'll be getting anything.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[darjr]

so either they haven't announced every product or it comes out much much later ir it's 'free'. none of these make much sense. if there is going to be a seperate basic why have a starter box at all?

 

[Mistwell]

I agree wholeheartedly... AFAIK character creation has been there in every entry product of D&D history (box or PHB), or was there some exception?

Creating something is pretty much a core aspect of RPGing. Picking pregens is really just a "preview" of the real game, the real game always implies that you create your own character.

It doesn't have to be a whole complete character creation with all the fiddly bits, but it's got to be something personal, even if it's as little as rolling/buying the six ability scores, which is probably what it was in some very old edition: roll ability scores + pick a class. But that was already enough to make your PC feel quite unique due to the large number of possible combinations of ability scores. Picking a pregen delivers a significantly different feel.

It feels weird that WotC sells a starting product that doesn't deliver the feeling that character creation is an essential part of RPGing.



YMMV, and I'm sure it does... but IMHO convention games are a very different and in fact limited RPGing experience. They are not the whole RPG thing. You are forced to start quickly and end the game in time. You can't have a too much open-ended adventure, you can't create much original stuff, you can't homebrew, you can't house rule, you can't always use additional material not to mention custom material... The vast majority of RPG games are played by people in their homes, the amount of games played at conventions or stores are a tiny fraction of the total. With all these limitations, pregens aren't a big deal.

Now I'm sure someone will jump up and say "but I never homebrew, never house rule, always use published adventures, etc.", which is fine, it's your choice. But if you never create characters, never design adventures or try world-building, you are in fact playing a limited version of the game, not the "whole thing".

Once again, it is totally OK to do so! It is also totally ok not to play RPG at all But I would expect WotC to want to make sure to tell beginners about the whole game immediately. I'm sure the Starter Set mentions writing your own adventures and setting, and you don't need rules for these, but unfortunately you do need at least some rules for creating characters. I just find it very odd that they prefer to save 3-5$ of a price that is already really low, rather than immediately teach the players that 99% (certainly more often than writing adventures) of the times when playing D&D they WILL create characters. So why not starting already in the SSet?

Limited version /= missing a VITAL element of the game.

When I played Basic, we were limited to low level, and limited to dungeon adventures. However, we were not missing anything vital to playing the game.

In a software context, vital includes the inability to save your work for example, which is vital to actually using the program. Hence it's called crippleware when you cannot do that.

And finally, most importantly - if EVERYONE can create characters for the game with or without the starter set, then by definition the starter set isn't missing that element of the game, because you already have it. Somehow people keep avoiding dealing with that issue. It doesn't matter if it is in a box or outside a box when you first get it - all that matters is whether you have it, or do not have it.

 

[Thaumaturge]

And now we know the missing bit, 15% of the PHB (the parts with character creation) will be free on the WotC site.

Check the BoardGameGeek Seminar thread.

Thaumaturge.