D&D 5E The new Dungeons & Dragons Starter Set - and online tools?

[thalmin]

Uhm... I think I understand that character generation is not strictly needed for the purpose they have decided for the Starter Set. But still, in terms of space required, including character generation instead of pre-gens should not have increased the price that much. 5 pregens characters x 5 levels = 25 character sheets + reference material (presumably spells, special abilities etc.), doesn't sound much smaller than putting small tables for the 4 core classes levels 1-5, compact info on 4 races, and a few lines to explain how to roll ability scores.

5 pregens could be 5 sheets with upgrades for up to level 5 on the back of the sheets. They have done that before.

 

[osprey126]

I can understand peoples confusion if the are looking for a BASIC set. Some people want to relive that nostalgia of opening their basic set (for me it was the Holmes version). That is not what this is. It is not a simplified version or "Basic" set of the rules. As it says in the product title it is a STARTER set and as Mike Mearls stated it is for DMs not a player resource. It is more akin to the quick start rules from many companies or the beginners boxes for Star Wars. For $20 it is about the same price as any other decent starter adventure and includes dice, DM help and ability for starting players to jump in. It sounds like they have some other plan to fill the niche of a "Basic" set to bridge the gap from the beginner Starter box and the big 3 books.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Those are the Standard rules, but the Starter Set was supposed to have Basic characters, i.e. fixed background, fixed subclass, fixed equipment, no feats.

I see they went beyond that and also fixed race and ability scores.

The Starter Set still needs the full description of skills, spells lv1-3, and race/class abilities, pregens or not. That apparently takes 32 pages. How much more is really needed for creation of characters?

You can fit a basic, shortened description of abilities for a pregen character on one to two double sided pieces of paper. The 6th level pregens that came with Dead in Thay were mostly one page but the spellcasters were 3 pages because they had the full description of all of their prepared spells on them. All the rules required to play are pretty much on the character sheets(they include descriptions of all feats, racial abilities, spells, and class features the character gets).

You can basically describe all the skills in 2 pages.

Beyond that, you likely don't need more than a very short equipment list(say one page of extra stuff you can buy), if you assume that all the pregens already have the equipment they need to play the game.

I assume that most of the 32 pages are actually the "How to Play" document in the playtest which is 29 pages long. Add the 3 pages I just mentioned above and you have 32 pages.

 

[Li Shenron]

I assume that most of the 32 pages are actually the "How to Play" document in the playtest which is 29 pages long. Add the 3 pages I just mentioned above and you have 32 pages.

"How to Play" includes parts that aren't necessary to the players: parts of the exploration and interaction rules, damage types, conditions, possibly even the dying rules. Cut verbosity and you can save even more space. "Character creation" document is 5 pages, but is very verbose and can be easily trimmed to max 2 pages (the whole middle section can be trimmed to one sentence: "pick a class and a race" for the supposed Basic characters).

No, that's not really the point. The point is that they decided they didn't want character creation rules in the SSet, not that they had problems with page count to cut down the cost (even if they might say that at some point... of course anything you chose not to have in a book cuts down the cost at the end). And the decision was because the purpose and target audience of the Starter Set is not the same as in previous editions. They could have put character creation rules, they chose not to.

I don't even care, since I wasn't going to buy for myself neither a "teaser" product, nor an introductory adventure, nor the "Basic" game. I'm simply trying to say that it's a design decision, that could have been different. I'll still actually pick up a couple of these SSets as gifts to friends I'd like to join the hobby, and leave it to them to decide if the format wins them or not.

 

[Pickles JG]

I'm simply trying to say that it's a design decision, that could have been different.

That's what made it a decision

 

[Transformer]

I'm sympathetic with the people who call the starter set crippleware. Character creation is absolutely fundamental to a tabletop roleplaying game. I don't care how basic your set is supposed to be or how inexperienced the target audience is: any set of tabletop roleplaying game rules with no character creation is little more than an advertisement you have to pay for.

No matter how user-friendly and intuitive the character creation option is, if it's not in the box, it's still a barrier. It's still a set of directions a new DM has to follow, a set of potential technical issues he has to deal with, a set of logistical issues he has to think through if he wants to be able to play D&D on his camping trip this weekend.

That said, I'll be 99% ok with their decision to leave character creation out of the box, if only these conditions are met:

• There are clear, prominent, easy-to-follow instructions in the starter set for accessing the character creation material, whatever form it takes.
• The character creation material is completely free (at least the portion which corresponds to the starter set).
• The character creation material (or free portion thereof) includes all classes, races, levels 1-5, and other crunch reflected in the starter set.
• Character creation can be done without an active internet connection (with pencil and paper, via an app, etc).
• Character creation can be done without any electronic device at all (i.e., you could download the character creation rules in some form, print them out, and then take them on your camping trip, secure in the knowledge that you can create more characters on the fly without the need for even a smartphone or tablet).

I suspect I will get most of the above, though the last one is iffy.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

"How to Play" includes parts that aren't necessary to the players: parts of the exploration and interaction rules, damage types, conditions, possibly even the dying rules. Cut verbosity and you can save even more space. "Character creation" document is 5 pages, but is very verbose and can be easily trimmed to max 2 pages (the whole middle section can be trimmed to one sentence: "pick a class and a race" for the supposed Basic characters).

Yes, but even if you cut all that, it would STILL be about 50+ pages just for character creation. The book is currently 32 pages, so it would still be significantly longer.

From everything released so far, it sounds like there is a 64 page adventure and a 32 page rules book. The rules on all of that stuff HAS to be printed somewhere. The damage types, conditions, and dying rules really need to be in a player book so that when they cast a spell that applies a condition or are reduced to 0 hitpoints they know what happens to them or the target.

No, that's not really the point. The point is that they decided they didn't want character creation rules in the SSet, not that they had problems with page count to cut down the cost (even if they might say that at some point... of course anything you chose not to have in a book cuts down the cost at the end). And the decision was because the purpose and target audience of the Starter Set is not the same as in previous editions. They could have put character creation rules, they chose not to.

Yes, the point of that decision is that they could have made a $30 or $40 product with character creation or a $20 one without it. If they put character creation in and the set was $40, everyone would be complaining that the price point was too high for a starter product and that no one with a passing interest in the game is going to spend that much money without knowing if they like it or not.

If we assume the PHB tells you the rules you need to play the game and the rules you need for character creation...that means that it takes 320 pages and costs $50 dollars for the full rules and character creation rules. I assume nearly 70% of the book is character creation rules, since that's about what the last 3 PHBs have been.

It's a choice. But it's a choice between reprinting the entire PHB or not.

 

[ExploderWizard]

So...wait. If I buy a copy of this boxed set and none of us have played D&D before and it has an adventure, a bunch of precon characters and the rules to the game. I then open it, read the rules and it says "Here's how to play, hand each of the players one of these characters, it'll tell them what their abilities are and what they can do. Then, run them through this adventure."

We sit down, I hand out the characters, we play to the end of the adventure, people roleplay their characters, they roll the included dice, everyone has fun. How is that not an RPG?

Then later, everyone says "Hey that was fun, oh...you can download more advanced rules from the internet which allow you to make up your own characters instead of using these premade characters. Awesome. And you can buy more adventures to play if you want. Or our DM can just use the monsters from the boxed set and keep running us through adventures he makes up.

It is certainly an rpg session, but if there is no way to generate characters and create your own adventures (even very limited ones for a couple levels) then it FAILS to deliver the core D&D experience which is simply:

1)Players generate characters

2) DM creates an adventure the players can play through.

Thats it really. If the job could get done 34 years ago in 64 pages there is no good excuse for not being able to do so now with 100 or so pages.

Pregen gen characters and a spoon fed one and done adventure is a trailer not a game.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm sympathetic with the people who call the starter set crippleware. Character creation is absolutely fundamental to a tabletop roleplaying game. I don't care how basic your set is supposed to be or how inexperienced the target audience is: any set of tabletop roleplaying game rules with no character creation is little more than an advertisement you have to pay for.

No matter how user-friendly and intuitive the character creation option is, if it's not in the box, it's still a barrier. It's still a set of directions a new DM has to follow, a set of potential technical issues he has to deal with, a set of logistical issues he has to think through if he wants to be able to play D&D on his camping trip this weekend.

That said, I'll be 99% ok with their decision to leave character creation out of the box, if only these conditions are met:

• There are clear, prominent, easy-to-follow instructions in the starter set for accessing the character creation material, whatever form it takes.
• The character creation material is completely free (at least the portion which corresponds to the starter set).
• The character creation material (or free portion thereof) includes all classes, races, levels 1-5, and other crunch reflected in the starter set.
• Character creation can be done without an active internet connection (with pencil and paper, via an app, etc).
• Character creation can be done without any electronic device at all (i.e., you could download the character creation rules in some form, print them out, and then take them on your camping trip, secure in the knowledge that you can create more characters on the fly without the need for even a smartphone or tablet).

I suspect I will get most of the above, though the last one is iffy.

If it's in the free Player's Guide that they hand you when you pay for your starter set, that should take care of all your issues, right?

 

[Mistwell]

It is certainly an rpg session, but if there is no way to generate characters and create your own adventures (even very limited ones for a couple levels) then it FAILS to deliver the core D&D experience which is simply:

1)Players generate characters

2) DM creates an adventure the players can play through.

Thats it really. If the job could get done 34 years ago in 64 pages there is no good excuse for not being able to do so now with 100 or so pages.

Pregen gen characters and a spoon fed one and done adventure is a trailer not a game.

If you can create adventures with it (we already have it on good authority there is more on this in it than in arguably any starter set, including the original Basic set), and if the Player's Guide you get for free when you buy it has character creation rules, will that satisfy your concerns?