[Forked from the Escapist Magazine Interview Thread] What implications does E...

[Dannyalcatraz]

Finally, this sort of griping is silly. The implications of Light, healing, and magical food creation are surely much more significant yet nobody complains that they can't wrap their heads around THAT. The whole post was just an edition war excuse.

Actually, there have been many threads here that focused how magic of the D&D variety would reshape the world to the point that it wouldn't really look like it does in most fantasy campaigns.

And the impact of magic ion relatively commonplace RW dilemmas often gets brought up, even if it's not the thread's primary focus.

 

[Klaus]

Actually, there have been many threads here that focused how magic of the D&D variety would reshape the world to the point that it wouldn't really look like it does in most fantasy campaigns.

And the impact of magic ion relatively commonplace RW dilemmas often gets brought up, even if it's not the thread's primary focus.

This one was one of the best: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?97601-The-Common-Commoner

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That was a fun one.

Reminds me, though, that I'm sorry to see so much of Raven Crowking's stuff is simply gone after he pitched his hissy...

 

[I'm A Banana]

Finally, this sort of griping is silly. The implications of Light, healing, and magical food creation are surely much more significant yet nobody complains that they can't wrap their heads around THAT. The whole post was just an edition war excuse.

Ah, so now everyone who imagines eladrin teleportation would have a significant effect on a setting is engaging in Edition War?

No, I don't think that's fair at all.

Climbing trees isn't hard.

It's harder than teleporting into them, that's for sure.

Anyway, if you're not floating out the strawman that I want eladrin to defy gravity, I don't have a quibble here. My position is that it's fine to think that blink elves will have a tremendous effect on the world, and it's fine to think that they won't, and there's no One True Way It Must Be, but there's a lot of interesting repercussions if you want to think about it.

Eladrin teenagers playing "chicken" by jumping off of cliffs and teleporting right before they hit ground? Eladrin having a phobia about windows? People gouging out Eladrin eyes and living like goblins because they're in a fight? All sound potentially interesting to me. I guess most 4e games just don't think about this stuff too hard (certainly no Eladrin in any 4er game I've played or DMed has been a distorting effect on the world), which is also fine.

Basically, folks need to stop telling other folks how they're allowed to have fun.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ah, so now everyone who imagines eladrin teleportation would have a significant effect on a setting is engaging in Edition War?

No, I don't think that's fair at all.

It was the tone, "our game was spoiled because we just couldn't deal with the 4e-ism". It really had nothing to do with eladrin specifically. The subsequent discussion on this thread was fun though. Like I said, and as Klaus just said, there's loads of effects that magic etc has on society. This one is interesting, but when someone says it hurts their game, and they aren't having the same issue with the 1000 things that have been in every edition, well, it was about editions not discussions of teleporting.

Anyway... I think there would likely be a lot of doorways with 'curtesy walls' on the other side.

 

[Hussar]

KM, if you look at the quote in the OP;

Our 4e group visited the Eladrin home town - the amount of mental gymnastics one had to use merely to imagine they could have any sort of society that we'd recognize with that kind of unlimited teleportation was far greater than the amount of work that went into the adventure itself.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...Thread-What-implications-does-E#ixzz34BkZEeXR

I think this is what AA is talking about when he points to editions warring. I have no problems with the idea that Eladrin teleport has some setting implications. Fair enough. But this? Really? The thread is over ten pages now and the biggest world changing thing so far is being able to break up pike formations. I get that there are setting implications. But, so far, no one has been able to give examples of anything needing great mental gymnastics.

If world changing elements were ranked from 1 to 10, with Flumphs being a 1 and divine magic being a 10, I'd say this is maybe a 2. If that. Certainly not something that I'd expect a group to get flummoxed by. I mean, there are flying elves which would have a much greater setting impact than someone who can cross a medium sized room once every five minutes.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It was the tone, "our game was spoiled because we just couldn't deal with the 4e-ism". It really had nothing to do with eladrin specifically.

Oh no?

Our 4e group visited the Eladrin home town - the amount of mental gymnastics one had to use merely to imagine they could have any sort of society that we'd recognize with that kind of unlimited teleportation was far greater than the amount of work that went into the adventure itself.

The specific issue the OP is talking about is unlimited teleportation. This could be someone's issue regardless of e -- 4e is just the only e that has a core race with it. The edition is incidental to the actual complaint, which is "unlimited teleportation makes my head hurt," which is legit, even if I don't share it.

Not every criticism of some random element of 4e means it's an edition war any more than saying you don't like THAC0 means you hate 2e or saying you don't like 3e's grapple rules means you have some grudge against 3e or saying that gnolls as the hybrid of gnomes and trolls is goofy means you are warring against OD&D. These are all independent of the edition as a whole. The OP pretty clearly states that unlimited teleportation is THE problem, and then we spend the next few pages talking about how it might (or might not) influence how one builds a campaign.

This one is interesting, but when someone says it hurts their game, and they aren't having the same issue with the 1000 things that have been in every edition, well, it was about editions not discussions of teleporting.

I've got a better explanation. It's called subjective experience, and it means that people get to have their own views on what breaks the game experience for them, and that their own experience is a legitimate experience. Just because you accept orcs doesn't mean you have to accept flumphs; just because you like 3e multiclassing doesn't mean you have to accept a character dressed in mostly buckles; just because you enjoy 4e's robust combat balance doesn't mean you have to be a fan of unlimited teleportation or status-piling. This isn't a package deal.

I have no problems with the idea that Eladrin teleport has some setting implications. Fair enough. But this? Really? The thread is over ten pages now and the biggest world changing thing so far is being able to break up pike formations. I get that there are setting implications. But, so far, no one has been able to give examples of anything needing great mental gymnastics.

Which is fine for you (and for me most of the time), but experiences differ. People have different expectations and different judgement criteria, and none of us gets to sit in a position of authority and decide for anyone else that their experience isn't legitimate. Finding out what people justify and what they explore and what they have issues with is fertile ground for conversation, but it stops being useful when people start dictating others' fun.

"You HAVE TO accept that unlimited teleportation for a PC race has no significant effect on a setting! If you don't, you're clearly just a hater motivated out of edition hate!" = not true.

"If you have unlimited teleportation for a PC race, you HAVE TO accept that this changes the setting dramatically! If you don't, you're clearly an idiot who doesn't think the ramifications of abilities through!" = also not true.

 

[Hussar]

But again KM, when someone makes the claim stating that an element is very jarring to the setting but is incapable of actually providing any examples of how it is jarring, is there really an expectation to blithely accept the claims?

Is it really just enough to make the claim and everyone should accept it without comment or discussion?

 

[billd91]

But again KM, when someone makes the claim stating that an element is very jarring to the setting but is incapable of actually providing any examples of how it is jarring, is there really an expectation to blithely accept the claims?

Is it really just enough to make the claim and everyone should accept it without comment or discussion?

I don't think anyone is saying there should be discussion. But discussion or no, it's his experience and it's possible to approach that experience, accept it, and still disagree with it and discuss the topic. There's a lot of summary dismissals in too many threads in this community.

 

[MoonSong]

I don't think anyone is saying there should be discussion. But discussion or no, it's his experience and it's possible to approach that experience, accept it, and still disagree with it and discuss the topic. There's a lot of summary dismissals in too many threads in this community.

Yes, they are pretty common indeed, last week when I was telling about how I found 4e lacking in the non-lethality as compared to 2e and 3e I found lots of dismissals running the gamut from "4e is better for non-lethality", "3e didn't work" to "you suck as a roleplayer for not wanting to kill stuff". When in fact I can say from experience that both 3e and 2e worked for me in that regard and 4e was unsatisfactory, yet some kept telling me it was impossible I could have that experience despite the fact I did. Some people just don't understand the difference between discussing facts and discussing experiences, no amount of arguing will retroactively change the subjective experiences of others. If the OP's group had a hard time coping with the worldbuilding implications of a single racial ability I have no reason to disbelief, or to dismiss the claims as edition warring, or think of them as less smart/imaginative/anything, in fact I would like to play with such a group some amount of reflexiveness can only be good and enhance the whole experience.

Edit: and I need soemon to cover some XP giving to billd91