[Forked from the Escapist Magazine Interview Thread] What implications does E...

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not world breaking, but definitely world shaping.

Thera are all kinds of hidden factors in the rise & fall of empires: Europe and Asia had a wider variety of domesticable animals than Africa; the extensive use of lead in Roman ceramics used to transport water and serve foods; the invention of the stirrup...

Teleportation, even limited by a "recharge" time, is a powerful tool.

Consider an eladrin sniper in his world's version of Stalingrad. He'll have a thorough understanding of his terrain, so will be aware of all kinds of perches and pathways. Once he has enemies in his LoF, he not only has all the standard options of engagement and disengagement, but every 5 minutes, can be 30' away from where you expect him to be, in any direction. That is not trivial.

 

[Hussar]

Not world breaking, but definitely world shaping.

Thera are all kinds of hidden factors in the rise & fall of empires: Europe and Asia had a wider variety of domesticable animals than Africa; the extensive use of lead in Roman ceramics used to transport water and serve foods; the invention of the stirrup...

Teleportation, even limited by a "recharge" time, is a powerful tool.

Consider an eladrin sniper in his world's version of Stalingrad. He'll have a thorough understanding of his terrain, so will be aware of all kinds of perches and pathways. Once he has enemies in his LoF, he not only has all the standard options of engagement and disengagement, but every 5 minutes, can be 30' away from where you expect him to be, in any direction. That is not trivial.

Oh, no, not trivial. And, again, I agree that in defensive roles, the teleport power would be very handy. Although, Stalingrad is a bit erm... anachronistic. But the point is certainly there. I guess, my point was being able to cross a room every five minutes isn't going to really rock anyone's socks too much. The LOS limitation is very important. You couldn't teleport from the ground through a window in the second story, for example, because you would be very unlikely to have LOS. Just like not really being able to teleport to a balcony from the ground, again, because of no LOS.

Heck, heavy rain would negate the power. Or fog. Or night, since Eladrin don't see in the dark in 4e. I mean, sure, there might be some situations where it would come up, but, considering the OP quote that I posted, I really don't think it's going to have anywhere near the impact that was claimed. Certainly far less impact than a lot of things.

Although, just to look at NeonC's point about wizards, I'm not sure if we can really point to that. Being a wizard, or any PC class is not guaranteed in 4e like it was in earlier editions. PC classes aren't meant to be "common" for everyone. It's more like Savage World's Wild Cards - it's for the players, not for the general world. But, to be fair, eladrin teleport would apply to all Eladrin, regardless of anything else. So, units of battlefield wizards would be no more common that any other classed units. 4e doesn't really work that way. It's not meant to be applied to the general world. Human soldiers aren't classed fighters or warriors. 4e doesn't really model events that occur in the general world away from the PC's.

 

[Bluenose]

Teleporting troops that can't teleport out are worthless, and most usually dead.

World War Two, in the news lately, had troops who could go to battle one way and not get out the same way. They were called paratroopers. They weren't worthless, though it's fair to say they frequently had very high casualties in the course of achieving or failing their missions - partly due to being lightly equipped compared to their enemies, which wouldn't have to be the case with Eladrin teleporters.

 

[Hussar]

World War Two, in the news lately, had troops who could go to battle one way and not get out the same way. They were called paratroopers. They weren't worthless, though it's fair to say they frequently had very high casualties in the course of achieving or failing their missions - partly due to being lightly equipped compared to their enemies, which wouldn't have to be the case with Eladrin teleporters.

Slight difference though. Paratroopers could drop significant distances from alerted troops. They generally weren't being dropped directly on top of alert troops that could see them coming. Often they were deployed at night and at some distance away from the objective.

IOW, we didn't drop paratroopers into Berlin for a reason.

There really isn't a comparison there. Paratroopers can be moved hundreds of miles in a matter of hours and delivered into a place with no visibility. Eladrin can move ten paces (not even a first down) but only if they can see where they are going.

Look, the only real battlefield advantage here is avoiding Opportunity Attacks. That's about it. They can't move any faster than someone could simply walk.

Ooo, but a thought occurs. Teleport negates momentum. You could have Eladrin paratroopers. Put them on the back of some really big flying creatures, or maybe a giant flying carpet a la The Black Company, and have them jump off from several thousand feet. Then, just before they go splat on the ground, they teleport the last 20 feet or so, land on their feet and walk away. Now that could be cool. Wouldn't work at night, but, it might be effective.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Look, the only real battlefield advantage here is avoiding Opportunity Attacks. That's about it. They can't move any faster than someone could simply walk.

It's not the speed, it's the nonlinearity, the stealth. Because they cross space without actually crossing it, they can thwart things like standard spiral search patterns- the guy you were looking for hid, then moved 30' away...to an area you already passed. All without stepping on a twig to let you know he did so.

Consider chasing an enemy eladrin squad through a city. After a long chase, they run upstairs in a tall tenement house and bust into an apartment. Your forces, hot on their tail, see them enter that room and follow- only to see them in a room in the adjacent building across the alley. To catch him, your guys will have to go downstairs from where you are and then climb the stairs next door...by which time, there is no guarantee he'll even be there.

Ooo, but a thought occurs. Teleport negates momentum. You could have Eladrin paratroopers. Put them on the back of some really big flying creatures, or maybe a giant flying carpet a la The Black Company, and have them jump off from several thousand feet. Then, just before they go splat on the ground, they teleport the last 20 feet or so, land on their feet and walk away. Now that could be cool. Wouldn't work at night, but, it might be effective.

Tie an object with some kind of light spell onto one end of a 60' rope* tied to your droptrooper's waist or leg, and he'll be able to see the ground in enough time to do that trick at night...

Beyond that, though, your idea also basically works with sieges, too. How do you keep eladrin droptroopers out of your castle when- after the combat engineers have found the right range & elevation- they could simply use catapults, trebuchets and the like to launch them over the walls, teleporting at the last instant to land safely?




* actually, probably longer because he's falling fast.

 

[Bluenose]

Beyond that, though, your idea also basically works with sieges, too. How do you keep eladrin droptroopers out of your castle when- after the combat engineers have found the right range & elevation- they could simply use catapults, trebuchets and the like to launch them over the walls, teleporting at the last instant to land safely?

People who've been subjected to the forces required to launch them into the air and over walls with a trebuchet are going to have multiple broken bones even before they land, and that assumes they don't simply pass out on launch and fail to react. This is car crash at 90mph level in terms of how much injury it inflicts.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I see eladrin tactical teleports as fascinating. I'm picturing humans defending a 25 foot tall wall. Whoops, too short! The walls have crenellations, partially blocking vision, and the walls are twice as thick as usual, and there's blocks and other stuff taking up about half the space. Plus most of the rest of the wall are occupied by people.

To teleport up, the eladrin need to clear some space. Enough for a squad. Archers and wizards focus fire a part of the wall, killing the humans there, then a force of spearmen and archers teleport up. The spearmen occupy both sides of this "vulnerable string" while archers in the middle slaughter another group of humans, opening up another space for a new squad.

How many targets could a trained archery formation drop in 30' before they have to either prepare for HTH combat or break & run? What happens when that last 30' can be covered in the blink of an eye?

If the archers let opponents get that close, they're probably already in trouble. Archers would probably try to occupy hills, not only to make it harder for people to get to them, but also to see them coming.

Human archers fighting eladrin in a forest at night are in a world of pain. They'd have a hard time if eladrin couldn't teleport, but it would be worse because eladrin can.

I don't think teleport is worse than a charge. It takes time, a decent fraction of six seconds. As far as I can tell, if you teleport more than 10 feet you're still taking a Stealth penalty. (So I guess you bamf, and then a couple of seconds later you appear elsewhere. The victim-to-be might even know where you will appear a split second before you do.)

A bit inaccurate in places. Eladrin can teleport as a move action. This means it takes time and a bit of focus; they can actually run faster than they can teleport - but teleporting doesn't trigger OAs. They also can't teleport into occupied spaces. The middle of a pike block is safe, the back of a shield wall isn't.

Maybe you can, if the pikemen are considered a "swarm". (Because a swarm is difficult but passable terrain.)

Let's suppose eladrin "automatically" beat pikemen. I don't think that's bad. Central Asian horse archers "automatically" beat Romans, and yet still lost some battles. I think a feudal lord raising troops would be less likely to raise pikemen if his lands are near an eladrin kingdom. Let's suppose this lord is far from the eladrin, and uses lots of pikemen. He would curse a blue streak if the king survived an assassination attempt at the hands of eladrin and a war was sparked with them. "Damnit, these guys are going to suck against all those wizards, archers and teleporters! I'm going to spend some of that gold on mercenaries and adventures!"

 

[Neonchameleon]

Consider an eladrin sniper in his world's version of Stalingrad. He'll have a thorough understanding of his terrain, so will be aware of all kinds of perches and pathways. Once he has enemies in his LoF, he not only has all the standard options of engagement and disengagement, but every 5 minutes, can be 30' away from where you expect him to be, in any direction. That is not trivial.

Stop ignoring the rules or pretending they say something else.

The Eladrin doesn't need five minutes to recharge. He needs five minutes resting to recharge. That's resting as in not looking down the gunsights or carefully watching the area he is supposed to be covering. And resting as in not taking return fire and needing to make sure they don't have a bead on you

So. Five minutes after the Sniper stops trying to snipe and instead opens their packed lunch or MREs they can teleport 30'. W00t! Especially if they aren't in a proper sniper blind. Yes, it's a useful trick - but it's just a single trick. And I'd be surprised if a sniper given the time and space with which to rest couldn't be 30' away from where they started. Now I fully accept that trying to invade an Eladrin city and hold it by force without trying to raze it to the ground is going to be a nightmare - but trying to hold armed, hostile cities by force is always a nightmare.

"That sniper hasn't been seen for five minutes."

"Oh no! They are the terrifying Eladrin snipers! They might have moved 30' without us spotting them - when no other master of camouflage would ever have thought of changing their position ever."

 

[Hussar]

Consider chasing an enemy eladrin squad through a city. After a long chase, they run upstairs in a tall tenement house and bust into an apartment. Your forces, hot on their tail, see them enter that room and follow- only to see them in a room in the adjacent building across the alley. To catch him, your guys will have to go downstairs from where you are and then climb the stairs next door...by which time, there is no guarantee he'll even be there.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-What-implications-does-E/page9#ixzz33xuAXOyx

That would need to be a VERY close neighbouring building with a conveniently placed window.

Look, 25 feet (not 30) is close enough for a decent running jump. Granted, not in armour, but, heh, it's certainly not that far to jump. I think you are really overestimating how far you can teleport here. Eight paces. That's it. Well, maybe 9 if you have short legs. The room you are in right now is likely 25 feet across. Certainly a fairly normal sized living room in an American home.

IOW, if that cover is really that close, it's not really all that different from the cover you are already in.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Stop ignoring the rules or pretending they say something else.

OMG, I'm SOOOOOOOOOsorry I forced you to use bolded text to scold me.

I'm not 100% savvy with the 4Ed rules, and I'm not sitting with them in front of me.

"That sniper hasn't been seen for five minutes."

"Oh no! They are the terrifying Eladrin snipers! They might have moved 30' without us spotting them - when no other master of camouflage would ever have thought of changing their position ever."

Stop strawmanning my posts. In no way did I say or imply that a RW sniper sits stationary while being hunted for. My continued and unchanged assumption is that eladrin start from the same strategic and tactical base point as RW units, then improve them via teleportation.

The key difference is that the eladrin does not have to expose himself by physically covering the intervening distance. That makes him harder to spot when he does change position.