[Forked from the Escapist Magazine Interview Thread] What implications does E...

[Hussar]

Why would r3 pikemen bother? R4 pikemen all stab our suicidal eladrin. Never minding that every single pikemen within 10 feet of the falling eladrin got an opportunity attack on him as he fell. So our suicide elf takes at least six attacks before he can make a single attack from prone.

Not the most winningest strategy.

 

[Hussar]

A further thought occurs as well. For your plan to work DannyA, the eladrin would have to start his turn at K-10'. If he moved then teleported (also a move action) he couldn't attack.

How would you do this without the Pikemen moving forward and engaging if you end your turn ten feet out of reach?

The only way this works is if the pikemen advance on the eladrin but run out of movement exactly ten feet out of reach.

I'm thinking this isn't a high percentage option.

I could see teleport being extremely effective defensively. Simply jumping over charging units. But it's not really long range enough to be effective at offence.

Would make for some absolutely killer running backs though.

 

[Bluenose]

How is he getting into the "middle of the formation" though?

The eladrin teleporters have to start their teleport 10 feet back from the front line, or they get stabbed by the pikemen. So, it's 20 feet (10 feet back from the front, 5 feet for the guy holding the pike and then the empty square) just to teleport over the FRONT rank of pikemen. Unless your pike formation is only two ranks deep, there's no way he can actually REACH the centre of the formation.

To be fair, two ranks deep is not unusual for medieval infantry formations. Even ones that used pole-arms.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A further thought occurs as well. For your plan to work DannyA, the eladrin would have to start his turn at K-10'. If he moved then teleported (also a move action) he couldn't attack.

How would you do this without the Pikemen moving forward and engaging if you end your turn ten feet out of reach?

The only way this works is if the pikemen advance on the eladrin but run out of movement exactly ten feet out of reach.

I'm thinking this isn't a high percentage option.

I could see teleport being extremely effective defensively. Simply jumping over charging units. But it's not really long range enough to be effective at offence.

Would make for some absolutely killer running backs though.

Start from basic principles: if you can't teleport, how do you break a standard 100 man, 10 per side pike square? How was it done in the RW? If all you have is various forms of infantry, the answer is, "with many casualties." Your soldiers will have to work their way through each row of pike points until they reach the outermost rows. And ideally, you do it from more than one side of the square- that minimizes the ability of those who are not directly engaged being able to support those who are. Its bloody work getting in, but once that first row is breached, the pike square starts to lose cohesion. But who is skilled & brave & lucky enough to work through those 3 layers?

None of this is in any way a "high-percentage option", but the alternative is letting the pike square continue unopposed.

It's that brutal reality that let the pike square define the battlefield for as long as it did.

The eladrin infantry could start from the same tactical starting point- with multiple soldiers braving attacks from that outermost layer of spearpoints, from at least 2 sides. (IOW, once engaged, the only move action taken is the blink.) But instead of having to work through the successive layers of pikes, those eladrin at the front teleport over the third rank. That bumps the probability of success in breaking the square WAY up.

...unless it's the job of the eladrin on the second or third row- those at -5' or -10'- to be the square breakers. The tactic starts the same, but instead of the front row blinking in, the front row provides cover, fending off the pikes via their weapons or shields. Even though the attack isn't at the 3rd rank of pikemen, the pike square is still in trouble- there are armed warriors within its defensive perimeter, and even more outside it.

BTW, still don't know if 4Ed pikes are 16'. Anybody know?

 

[Bluenose]

Start from basic principles: if you can't teleport, how do you break a standard 100 man, 10 per side pike square? How was it done in the RW?

Pike formations historically were broken up by flank attacks; difficult terrain; other pike formations; being pinned in place under missile fire. Although I would note that your "standard" formation is unlike anything I've ever seen described for any pike formation.

 

[Neonchameleon]

(Actually...I just realized I don't know- are 4Ed pikes 16' long?)

I'm fairly sure 4E doesn't have pikes as PC weapons.

Breaking the formation is simply easier for the eladrin than for those without their blink.

Nonsense. Breaking a pike formation is trivial for just about anyone with trained warriors. Pikemen stand close packed - about 3ft by 3ft each in light armour and they can't dodge well. Anyone with a simple Scorching Burst or Alchemists' Fire should therefore be able to hit a couple of dozen pikers Eladrin using their feysteps meanwhile have to run a slightly absurd "Fall down on my ass" maneuver in which you are consistently assuming that pikemen would be trained in exactly the same way real world pikers who didn't have to worry about magic would. And if a D&D army takes no account of magic it deserves the Darwin Award that's about to happen to it.

The melee weapon of choice on the 4e battlefield is the Halberd (or ranseur or glaive-guisarme or about half of the rest of Appendix T). Something with reach but that you can duel with. And help your mates out with. Something that works in open formation as well as closed because permanently being in close formation is a Darwin Award. And try a death from above on a block of halberds and the back ranks will turn you into chopped liver.

In 4e many wizards can cast Scorching Burst as an at will spell which they select at first level. This means they can cast short range 8' radius mini-fireballs for as long as a fighter can keep swinging a sword. Of course this impacts military tactics. In a situation like that you can't even put a pike block onto the battlefield - the closest you do is spears + human wave tactics with your peasants.

 

[D'karr]

Teleporting troops that

Teleporting troops that can't teleport out are worthless, and most usually dead.

A wargame that has teleporting troops is Warhammer 40K. Warp Spiders are troops that teleport in, shoot AoE weapons, and can teleport out if they have any movement left. Their tactics only work effectively when they can teleport in, and out before the other side has a chance to act. In those cases where they are out of move and the enemy can catch up to them they die rather horribly as the enemy masses fire on them.

In the case of D&D I can see an Eladrin army using the teleport for some situational and positional advantage, but the long recharge makes it likely that suicide runs are not what they'd use it for. Jumping in the middle of the enemy might get you a quick short burst of chaos, but eventually other armies would adapt to the teleport. Weapons and tactics would evolve to counter/minimize or even exploit the teleporting tactic.

In the lore of D&D Elves and Eladrin are usually long lived but not very numerous. I'd think that they would try to prevent getting into using suicidal tactics.

 

[billd91]

As far as theft goes, huh?

You teleport in, and then what? You are stuck for five minutes minimum. Jail break? Ok you get out of your cell. Now what? With guards chasing you, you can't rest and can't teleport again. You are still stuck.

Never mind that you are stopped by a blindfold. Incarcerating an eladrin isn't particularly difficult.

No windows on the ground floor? Again, why? For one, shutters or even paper doors stop teleports.

Sure there might be some uses. The arrow slit vault with no door is a cool idea. But I'm not seeing anything too earth shaking.

Good grief, dark vision would have a larger effect on society this this.

I don't think you're being imaginative enough. If you're not mugging someone, a 5 minute wait until you can teleport back out is a small thing for a theft. Shutters and paper doors still may have cracks and can be defeated by punching through small peep holes - again, pushing the owner to avoid any windows that would be within reach. But it goes even farther than that. Not needing to get through intervening space opens up a lot of possibilities and sometimes a one-way trip is all that's necessary. That may support the suicidal attack that teleports in without caring about leaving, but it also works as an incredible exit strategy for a more careful infiltration whether you're stabbing someone or grabbing someone important and teleporting away. The level of paranoia a race that can just do this would inspire would be astonishing - quite a bit more than seeing in the dark. A high level wizard in any edition of D&D would have a more powerful teleport, but the standard assumption is that they are few and far between - not making up whole cities or nations.

 

[dd.stevenson]

Teleporting troops that can't teleport out are worthless, and most usually dead.

It's hard to tell whether you're talking about individual skirmishers or units of soldiers commanded by a captain. Of course, individuals teleporting into the enemy ranks without an easy escape plan are likely dead.

But, entire troops that can teleport are going to be prized, even if it's just a 25' hop 1/5min. Often in ancient/medieval history, even a 5' distance between two opposing ranks has made the difference between victory and defeat. A troop of blink elves who could teleport a whole rank (either forward or backward) could control that distance, which would have serious implications on the battlefield. This includes (for example) troops that are able to teleport their first rank in between the enemy's first and second ranks.

But to reiterate from before, I'm not arguing that this has world-breaking ramifications.

 

[Hussar]

Again, I have to point out how limited this is. We're talking about being able to cross a single room. That's it. Paranoia? Why? If I'm close enough to poke holes in screens, I'm close enough just to open the thing.

Meh, on a scale of world changing elements, this is pretty minor. And far more minor than most.
[MENTION=44640]bill[/MENTION]91. If I have troops with lowlight vision and you have normal sight, I will win every single war we fight. I can use any ranged weapon at night and be just as effective.

It's a blind army fighting a sighted one.