[Forked from the Escapist Magazine Interview Thread] What implications does E...

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's a helm that dates to about...oh...300 years after the pike square was dominant on the battlefield.

And even if they don't do that, that's not actually true. The ones in front just have to be lower than the ones in the rear.

The standard tactic, when engaged, was the outermost ranks facing the foes knelt and set their pikes. The next row was set about shoulder height to those kneeling, the next, interspersed between the front 2. They weren't pointing upwards.

Did you watch your video? The pikes in the pike square at one point formed a hedgehog, with the points pointing out all round.

Yes...in the same horizontal plane, not the vertical. Engaged by troops using standard tactics, the pike square has nobody to spare to point upwards. The vertical path of attack is clear because the pike formation won't work against the ground troops otherwise.

5 foot by 5 foot?

Looks to be so to me.

Humans aren't stupid; any trick can be countered.

True. Perhaps in a D&D world, spiked armor WOULD be present in the battlefield. In fact, I've suggested that it would be.

Because IMHO, in a standard high-fantasy world which- besides eladrin teleporters- contains all kinds of flying threats and giant-sized foes, a formation like the pike square or shield wall may never have been as dominant as they were in our world. Maybe they wouldn't even exist, because they're vulnerable to attack from the vertical plane.

And by that, I mean, there are so many more threats than the typical projectiles of spear, arrow, slingstone and the like. Really, combat in such a world would more closely resemble that of the post-WW1 battlefield than a medieval one.

Where a RW shield wall or pike formation might be able to raise shields or buckers to "turtle up" to avoid injury from incoming projectiles (because the ground troops so won't be able to engage when their artillery allies are bombarding their foes), the fantasy world's blinking/teleporting troops are fully capable of coordinating attacks with conventional forces.

(see Harry Turtledove's Darkness novels- essentially, a WW2-type conflict in a fantasy world.)

Falling rules. Attack or stand up...

I see that more as jumping down- a controlled, voluntary change in altitude- as opposed to falling down. I suspect there would be a measurable difference of opinion on that, though.

 

[Neonchameleon]

That's a helm that dates to about...oh...300 years after the pike square was dominant on the battlefield.

And?

The standard tactic, when engaged, was the outermost ranks facing the foes knelt and set their pikes. The next row was set about shoulder height to those kneeling, the next, interspersed between the front 2. They weren't pointing upwards.

Because they didn't have to deal with fliers or teleporters. It wasn't a matter of capability, it was because doing so would be pointless.

Yes...in the same horizontal plane, not the vertical. Engaged by troops using standard tactics, the pike square has nobody to spare to point upwards. The vertical path of attack is clear because the pike formation won't work against the ground troops otherwise.

No. Because the pikes pointing up won't work against ground troops. Which makes them useless against people on the ground.

Because IMHO, in a standard high-fantasy world which- besides eladrin teleporters- contains all kinds of flying threats and giant-sized foes, a formation like the pike square or shield wall may never have been as dominant as they were in our world. Maybe they wouldn't even exist, because they're vulnerable to attack from the vertical plane.

I'd say the only close order heavy infantry I'd want would be Roman Legionaries who can form a testudo. Too much flies, too much fireballs.

Where a RW shield wall or pike formation might be able to raise shields or buckers to "turtle up" to avoid injury from incoming projectiles (because the ground troops so won't be able to engage when their artillery allies are bombarding their foes), the fantasy world's blinking/teleporting troops are fully capable of coordinating attacks with conventional forces.

So were real world artillery tbh.

 

[Umbran]

Besides, who said they had to teleport into the occupied space? You're thinking like a ground pounder. Their ability works in all 3 dimensions, so they could easily teleport about 7' over the formation and do just fine.

The rules say you can only teleport into a space you can occupy without squeezing.

Can you "occupy" a space that you cannot physically remain in for more than a fraction of a second?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

So, the pikemen were lightly armored, and typically had no weapons beyond the pike and possibly a knife. A fully armed & armored infantryman teleporting into their midst would be like a wolf among sheep.

No, he'd be stabbed to death when he had an uncontrolled fall on to a mass of struggling people (even if he "landed right" he'd be crowd-surfing into an angry hateful crowd!). You are dreaming with this "wolf" nonsense. It's utter rubbish.

Have you ever had 100lbs dropped on you from 7' up? When I was sparring in NERO, I damn near concussed a 330lb bouncer with my 3lb pillow on a 6' stick. And he partially blocked the strike. Unexpected impact from above with an adult's mass might very well snap a neck.

You saw where I said it might snap necks, right? It might, or it might miss everyone's head entirely - in fact, given it's area, that's extremely likely - most likely you will force people apart and bruise/batter them, not KO them, which is nice, but then you DIE to the ANGRY CROWD.

Besides- to return to the mechanics of the game- where is it written that a teleporting eladrin loses control after he pops back in?

It's right there in the FALLING RULES - if you teleport into the air, you immediately fall. That's the rules! Carrying two sacks is going to mean it's impossible to make any kind of acrobatics check, too. You are not allowed to not fall, in any event. Enemies even get a special save if you try and teleport them into the air, because of this!

On top of all this, as we've said - THERE ARE PROBABLY NO PIKE FORMATIONS IN D&D-LAND. Good grief. Just accept that it is a bad idea and come up with a good one. It's not like teleporting is militarily useless. Hell, one hilarious use would be the teleporting polearm formation, if we're going to play that game - have a bunch of people "hold their action" for a charging knight or whatever, then simultaneously teleport his sides and behind him (or behind his formation or whatever), and attack (with crossbows and/or close-range thrown weapons if you're going for moving knights - or be standing in front of a ditch or whatever.

It's very militarily useful. Just not in the way you want it to be.

I swear D&D players and their obsession with teleporting heavy objects into the air even when it makes no sense... I've been dealing with this obsession since early 2E...

The rules say you can only teleport into a space you can occupy without squeezing.

Can you "occupy" a space that you cannot physically remain in for more than a fraction of a second?

To be fair, 4E does semi-explicitly let you teleport into the air (more specifically, it has rules about how if someone does it to you, you get save, so it is to be presumed, logically, that you could do it to yourself).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And?

And therefore, would likely not be worn by pikemen.

Because they didn't have to deal with fliers or teleporters. It wasn't a matter of capability, it was because doing so would be pointless.

(Heh..."pointless.")

While it is true that they didn't have to deal with blinkers or fliers, that is not the reason for the standard tactic, that is a side effect. The reason for the standard tactic is that each row of pikemen is working to cover each other. The outermost is the initial encounter point, the second rank takes care of those who get past that barrier, and the third rank attacks those nearly close enough to physically engage the outermost rank of the square. Re-assign the tertiary row to defend against threats from above, and you only have 2 rows of pikemen facing the ground targets- the periphery is more vulnerable. It will be easier for terrestrial forces to penetrate the 33% less spiky flanks.

And since pikes are @16' long, someone blinking it at an altitude of 7' has already bypassed the reach of the upraised pikes.

No. Because the pikes pointing up won't work against ground troops. Which makes them useless against people on the ground.

If you have the third row pointing up to defend against attacks from above, there is nobody to defend the first rank of the square against attacks that get past the first 2 rows of pikes.

I'd say the only close order heavy infantry I'd want would be Roman Legionaries who can form a testudo. Too much flies, too much fireballs.

Testudos just mean more targets getting fried in the AoE of a fireball. A D&D fireball, at least.

(Or getting et by burrowing attackers...)

So were real world artillery tbh.

Modern artillery, yes, but not the mundane projectile weapons typical of D&D- not with the precision of fantasy-realm combatants.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And therefore, would likely not be worn by pikemen.

Any troop type on the battlefield that doesn't adapt will die. Why are you assuming that the Pikemen both are stupid and everyone who knows them is stupid?

And since pikes are @16' long, someone blinking it at an altitude of 7' has already bypassed the reach of the upraised pikes.

Except they can't do that because the square counts as occupied.

Testudos just mean more targets getting fried in the AoE of a fireball. A D&D fireball, at least.

Nope. A D&D fireball explodes on the outside of the testudo. Everyone at the very least has superior cover.

(Or getting et by burrowing attackers...)

Now this is an actual problem.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No, he'd be stabbed to death when he had an uncontrolled fall on to a mass of struggling people (even if he "landed right" he'd be crowd-surfing into an angry hateful crowd!). You are dreaming with this "wolf" nonsense. It's utter rubbish.

Stabbed to death? With what?

The 16' pikes they're going to quicky "short-haft" to poke the guy in the middle of the formation?

Or will they drop their (2 handed) pikes to stab him with the knives (which they may or may not have), thus exposing their flanks that are also under attack?

You saw where I said it might snap necks, right? It might, or it might miss everyone's head entirely - in fact, given it's area, that's extremely likely - most likely you will force people apart and bruise/batter them, not KO them, which is nice, but then you DIE to the ANGRY CROWD.

The formation is great at fighting off foes from the outside, but pike squares fall apart very quickly when someone gets past the pikes, which the eladrin ability makes much easier.

It's right there in the FALLING RULES - if you teleport into the air, you immediately fall. That's the rules! Carrying two sacks is going to mean it's impossible to make any kind of acrobatics check, too. You are not allowed to not fall, in any event. Enemies even get a special save if you try and teleport them into the air, because of this!

Could be- I'm not that familiar with 4th's rules on this.

On top of all this, as we've said - THERE ARE PROBABLY NO PIKE FORMATIONS IN D&D-LAND.

Which I agreed with, but not everyone did.

The point is: even if the eladrin were the only vertical threat, their ability would probably be enough of a problem for a pike square that it wouldn't be as dominant as it was in the RW, at least, not when fighting them. And THAT is a point that is relevant to the starting point of the thread.

 

[Hussar]

How is he getting into the "middle of the formation" though?

The eladrin teleporters have to start their teleport 10 feet back from the front line, or they get stabbed by the pikemen. So, it's 20 feet (10 feet back from the front, 5 feet for the guy holding the pike and then the empty square) just to teleport over the FRONT rank of pikemen. Unless your pike formation is only two ranks deep, there's no way he can actually REACH the centre of the formation.

People tend to really forget just how short that teleport is. Remember that 16 foot pike you mentioned? That's why eladrin teleporters don't work.

DannyA, you mentioned about crossing a "great hall". What great hall is ten steps from the door to the throne. That's not a great hall, that's my living room. And, let's not forget, even if he manages to get there, it's still a suicide run, because he can't get away. Not that suicidally attacking the king never happens, but, it doesn't happen that often.

@KM, I can buy not liking Eladrin. That's fine. But, that's not my beef. Like the quote in the OP, the problem has been posited that it's the world building implications that make Eladrin problematic. I think it's a fair point of discussion to ask what those world building implications are. Teenage Eladrin killing themselves with their teleport is possible, I suppose. But, then again, that's just one more of a bajillion ways we can win a Darwin award in our youth. And, really, it's not a particularly easy way to off yourself, because we're talking about LOS teleport less than ten steps away.

Like I said, it's not a problem if someone doesn't like Eladrin. That's groovy. But, I was curious about these world building implications and it looks an awful lot like there really isn't any of consequence. It's not like you have an entire race that can see perfectly well in all light conditions. If you think blink elves would dominate a battlefield, imagine any race with dark vision or low light vision as D&D defines it on the battlefield. Humans wouldn't stand a chance. Archers that can hit with the same accuracy at midnight (so long as there is any moonlight) as at noon? We only need to look at the development of night vision technology in the modern battlefield to see how much that can change combat.

Being able to cross a room 1/5 minutes? Not going to have a huge impact. Now, Mach 2.2 Elves? That's a game changer.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The eladrin teleporters have to start their teleport 10 feet back from the front line, or they get stabbed by the pikemen. So, it's 20 feet (10 feet back from the front, 5 feet for the guy holding the pike and then the empty square) just to teleport over the FRONT rank of pikemen. Unless your pike formation is only two ranks deep, there's no way he can actually REACH the centre of the formation.

Pardon the formatting (and showing only 1 Eladrin column attacking a column of pikemen for ease of illustration):

K-10' K-5' E0' <5' <10' <15' P20' P25' P30'

Where:
K = eladrin knight
E = eladrin trooper
< = pike point
P = Pikeman

(Actually...I just realized I don't know- are 4Ed pikes 16' long?)

Assuming semi-realistic geometry, a 30' blink gets the Eladrin appearing in the air somewhere between the second and third row of pikemen; Using 4Ed squares, he's appearing right above the third rank. Either way, he's well away from the business end of the polearms.

Now, sticking with 4Ed rules- and feel free to correct my rules errors- the Eladrin falls on the 3rd Pikeman. The 3rd Pikeman has to successfully not be knocked down by the falling Eladrin trooper. The Eladrin has to choose to attack while prone or stand. Lets say he attacks.

Whether or not the Pikeman was knocked down, he has the same basic decision to make as the trooper, and has to do so while adjacent to an armed hostile.

Lets say he attacks. If he attacks with his pike, he's obviously aiming at the knights who are advancing behind the Trooper. If he drops his pike to try to knife the Trooper, any knight advancing into the rarest of pikes is facing one less obstacle.

Is the Trooper's job suicidal? Well, it's definitely ultra dangerous, but it's less dangerous than simply working his way through the bristling pikes to get to the first row, then second, then third like a human would have to- he's attacking from the soft side. And those at the formation' interior have to make the choice between maintaining formation discipline or dealing with the SOB in their midst.

And all that assumes that only the Trooper blinks over the formation. His allies could do likewise, though enough still have to be advancing conventionally to make the pikemen have to keep their pikes at the horizontal.

Breaking the formation is simply easier for the eladrin than for those without their blink.

 

[Ratskinner]

The 4E edition war train sailed a long time ago, as far as I'm concerned.

I wonder what implications it would have for a world if trains sailed?


EDIT: Freakishly enough http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/sail/sail.htm