D&D 5E L&L 6/23 A Living Rule Set

I have some skeptical eyebrows for their ability to pull this off smoothly -- if my friend uses a more recent printing of the PHB are the adjustments such that I'll want one, too? -- but the intent is to avoid that, and that's a great intent that will be solid if they pull it off. No reason to assume they won't, so here's the "trust but verify" angle!

Paizo's core rulebook has been updated six times (once per reprinting). Each time, some errata (and not necessarily minor errata either) made it in. They updated the PRD, issued an errata document, and moved on.

WotC and TSR both did it that way too: errata when a new printing came out. The phenomenon of buying a rulebook and waiting for the patch errata is something that really only happened in the later 3.5 and 4e era. I recall playing Skills & Powers (1st print) and never once thought there might be errata for it. (I found said errata four years later). Heck, I have a few 2e books that provide errata for OTHER TSR books (famously: the Complete Druid's Handbook fixes several druid spells in the PHB; the Ravenloft red-box has errata for the Complete Psionics Handbook in the psionics chapter).

I think the big takeaway from this is: we are going to be asked what works and what doesn't, errata is a yearly thing, and we're not going to do re-writes unless absolutely necessary.
 

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We'll see how serious he is about that statement, when we see how the online tools work, if they support a la carte errata enabling. If it's anything like 4th ed, you will be forced to use the latest and greatest even if it "fixes" something that ain't broken and suddenly your entire character build is busted up even though nobody complained. Leave it as an option to the DM and the table to pick and choose which errata they want.

It would have been totally trivial to do this in 4th ed but they didn't because of course they know best (even though some of the errrata made things worse, or nerfed things into beyond useless)
Yo man, lay off the cynicism already. This article describes how they want to take a less ham-fisted approach to errata in the new edition, which ought to be good news to you based on your stated preferences.

For a guy named DDNFan, why do your posts so often include such bitter and negative comments about WotC's competence? I genuinely don't see how being so miserable helps.

I like a lot of this. That they plan on 5e being a "long haul" edition. The option to NOT update your rules, the criteria for which they're determining what needs changing (so people who winge about some under-used rules hypothetical don't get all the attention), the fact that they're casting a broad net and not just listening to the boards for their feedback...

I have some skeptical eyebrows for their ability to pull this off smoothly -- if my friend uses a more recent printing of the PHB are the adjustments such that I'll want one, too? -- but the intent is to avoid that, and that's a great intent that will be solid if they pull it off. No reason to assume they won't, so here's the "trust but verify" angle!
I think Basic D&D will be a huge help in this regard; it's already going to be freely downloadable, so updating the document (and having players download newer copies of it, if they choose to) is trivial.

...Mind you, the "basic" rules of 3E and 4E were balanced too. It's always been spells, class features, and character options (including some from the core game) that were the root of brokenness.
 
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If it's anything like 4th ed, you will be forced to use the latest and greatest even if it "fixes" something that ain't broken...It would have been totally trivial to do this in 4th ed but they didn't because of course they know best

I feel like you could've said pretty much the same thing without this hyperbolic level of hostility toward what happened in 4e. If you want to keep posting, you'll do well to consider the ways in which you can post without that hostility in the future.
 

I like this approach. I especially like the idea of having proposed solutions put to the community for playtesting and feedback. That allows each table to decide if an issue is big enough to warrant using an untested proposal, or if they'd rather wait for test results to come in.

I do wonder how this is going to interact with organized play. And while I don't share DDNFan's pessimism, the question of how this is going to work with online tools is a very valid one. In general, designing the online tools to support 5E's "modular" approach will be a big challenge.
 
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Yo man, lay off the cynicism already. This article describes how they want to take a less ham-fisted approach to errata in the new edition, which ought to be good news to you based on your stated preferences.

For a guy named DDNFan, why do your posts so often include such bitter and negative comments about WotC's competence? I genuinely don't see how being so miserable helps.

Enabling modularity, at the line by line level in errata, in online tools is not a given. It costs money to have options. They didn't do it in DDI because it would have added expense, and I harbour doubts that the new online tools will offer this level of fine grained toggling as this article is mentioning. Of course you can hand pick which errata to apply to your own books or your own game, but you can't really do that if you're using a character generator and from past experience using their products, I don't see how the new iteration will be different here. I expect errata to be non-selectable. This could be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on various factors as he mentions. But the economics of offering a la carte errata selection will come into play, which is why what you see as cynicism on my part, I consider merely common sense.

Sorry if that offended anyone. Maybe we can get an official response from the new online tools company reps who post here on this issue : Will errata be toggle-able? Will people be able to add their own houserules, e.g. free feat at level 1, or humans get +1 to two stats or a +2 to one instead of +1 to all, which many people find unbalanced?

It's not just errata that need to be selectable and affect your characters, it's houserules. You could do that in the offline character builder, but in the online one you were basically thrown into the mainstream, whether you liked it or not. That's not value added proposition, that's value removed. They gave us an inferior, less customizable product with their online offering, and that was a top down decision. There were hidden options in the online builder that were never exposed to enable customization, such as adding your own powers, feats, removing them, and so on.

I paid a lot of money to be a DDI subscriber and they let a lot of people down. It was seen, rightly I think, as a cash grab to make you have to pay to access your own characters online because they were stored in the cloud, instead of paying for it once. So their idea of value added was adding new powers and feats and stuff, but they didn't actually want people to customize the game their own way. Like fixing Expertise using a checkbox on your sheet, instead of making people take a feat. Or a host of other houserules that people could have shared with each other.

If Wizards were serious about seeing where the game is evolving to, they should add a way to add houserules to the online tools, see how many people are using which ones, then make those official "optional" rules, similar to how the article describes. Surveys are a poor way to get to the data that will already exist in the online builder. They will see how many times Expertise is taken, then see how little it's taken once people select "free expertise fix", to use a 4e example. Then they can see "change Second Wind to be a reaction that gives 1d10 + level Temp HP when you take damage", and see how many people use that instead of the default.

His idea of using survey data is flawed, slow, and not ideal at all to get real numbers, when they already can have access to that data. How many times has subclass X been selected and levelled up, and how many of those used such and such a weapon? I think you will see patterns, such as daggers are virtually never used by rogues in 5th edition, for example. There is no mechanical reason to ever use a dagger instead of a shortsword, or a rapier over two short swords. If you took the Dual Wielder feat as a rogue to get extra AC and use a rapier in your main hand, great, but you will still be using a short sword in your offhand, not a dagger. And by "you" I mean the common gamer, not any particular person who simply prefers daggers or finds a magic +1 dagger and that's the only reason he's using it.
 
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That's... better than I expected.

They seem to be doing this quite a bit with the business side of 5e - certainly what we're getting seems to be a much more... cooperative? savvy? (I'm sure some people will think "indifferent", but I can't see that considering the money that's been invested in 5e) Hasbro than we've seen in the past. A year ago, I would never have expected the 5e business plan to be so sensibly forward-thinking. So, you know. Kudos to Hasbro for understanding the marketplace and coming up with a plan that has a chance of growing the rpg community. Or for listening to the WotC people who understand the community, at least.

If they carry on like this, I'm going to have to raise my expectations at some point.

(I'd normally add that they've plenty of time to still mess it up, but... I'm starting to believe that they might actually have made an honest, decent go at it. Yes, 5e might still fail, but I'm finding that less and less likely every time I see sensible stuff like this)
 

Your tone is a lot better in this post. Props for that, DDNFan.

Personally, I'm not sure if there is an ideal approach to collecting data about how D&D is played; it's an analog game played in private residences, and with a long tradition of homebrewing and houseruling. It would surely be slow, but maybe continuing with post-release playtest reports is the best way to get whole-picture data about the way the game is played.

I think you raise some legitimate questions about how errata integration should be handled in online tools. That said, we don't know much at all about 5E's online tools yet, except that they're being produced out-of-house, which is already a difference with DDI if I remember correctly. You're not wrong to say that WotC hasn't yet hit the sweet spot with regards to digital integration with D&D, but I think it's too early to say that this iteration won't be an improvement.
 

If Wizards were serious about seeing where the game is evolving to, they should add a way to add houserules to the online tools, see how many people are using which ones, then make those official "optional" rules, similar to how the article describes. Surveys are a poor way to get to the data that will already exist in the online builder. They will see how many times Expertise is taken, then see how little it's taken once people select "free expertise fix", to use a 4e example. Then they can see "change Second Wind to be a reaction that gives 1d10 + level Temp HP when you take damage", and see how many people use that instead of the default.

His idea of using survey data is flawed, slow, and not ideal at all to get real numbers, when they already can have access to that data. How many times has subclass X been selected and levelled up, and how many of those used such and such a weapon? I think you will see patterns, such as daggers are virtually never used by rogues in 5th edition, for example. There is no mechanical reason to ever use a dagger instead of a shortsword, or a rapier over two short swords. If you took the Dual Wielder feat as a rogue to get extra AC and use a rapier in your main hand, great, but you will still be using a short sword in your offhand, not a dagger. And by "you" I mean the common gamer, not any particular person who simply prefers daggers or finds a magic +1 dagger and that's the only reason he's using it.

Using the online tools will only get you access to a single slice of the D&D-playing community - those who decide to use online tools. What's more, it will give you a misleading view on that slice, since I'd be willing to bet that a large subset of those users - potentially the majority of them - will not run their entire games from the online tools. In a group of five, two might use the online tools and three might prefer pen and paper.

A survey will also give you access to only a slice of the community - that which is interested in responding to surveys. However, it would be a much less biased subset of the community.

The time issue isn't a problem, either - they're talking about not rushing in to changes, to take it slowly. Changes on the order of a year or two. This is definitely a big improvement on 4e, which took an approach to errata that I found too hasty (Printing off a new character sheet to find that entire powers and abilities no longer existed really adds to the confusion of a session). But that could have been a lot worse - they spent a lot of effort actually fixing issues with 4e, and the game definitely improved for it, in the end.

I have to say, though, given the 3e example of deciding that some issues were just too big to errata and the 4e one of aggressively fixing everything, I think the 5e approach will be by far my favourite!
 

Bunch of stuff about DDO and 4e and online tools

WOTC isn't putting digital tools as the centerpiece of this edition. They're not even themselves making any digital tools, they just agreed to license those rights to a third party company who approached them. WOTC is focusing on books and possibly PDFs. So all your complaints about DDI and digital tools as they relate to WOTC seem misplaced for this issue. Ask the new company what they plan to do - it really likely is not strictly up to WOTC anyway, and the game does not revolve around those tools this time around.

His idea of using survey data is flawed, slow, and not ideal at all to get real numbers, when they already can have access to that data.

Naw, because as I said the digital tools are not the focus of this edition and I think a significant portion of the playing population will not use them at all, unlike for 4e. Because the lack of complexity of this rules set, and the sheer quantity of optional rules, makes use of such tools less helpful overall. Sure, some people will still use them, but the sense that you almost need to use them simply won't be as strong with this edition and so that data would not be nearly as representative as survey data.

There is no mechanical reason to ever use a dagger instead of a shortsword, or a rapier over two short swords. If you took the Dual Wielder feat as a rogue to get extra AC and use a rapier in your main hand, great, but you will still be using a short sword in your offhand, not a dagger. And by "you" I mean the common gamer, not any particular person who simply prefers daggers or finds a magic +1 dagger and that's the only reason he's using it.

I really think your conception that most players of this upcoming edition will think of weapon use purely in mechanical terms is flawed. But we shall see.
 

They believe in the playtest->survey->rule iteration model enough they built an entire edition on it.

It seems logical that they believe in the same model enough to maintain said edition once it's released.

Thaumaturge.
 

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