D&D 5E (D&D Next) - Seven Defensive Stats: Isn't that a bit too many?

[Chaltab]

So, I notice that both the fighter and the cleric use the mechanic introduced during the playtest in which, aside from AC, defensive stats also include saving throws based on all six standard Ability Scores. Unfortuantely due to scheduling conflicts with my group I was never able to participate in a playtest game, so I haven't had the option to try these rules out in combat, but it does seem a bit... overkill?

AD&D and Basic both had 5 saving throws based on what you were saving against--and not the same five at that, and 3E reduced that to simply three saving throws based on the manner in which you saved: Fortitude, Will, and Reflex. As far as I can recall, this was a well-received change because it was less to keep track of. 4E used the same three terms but reversed them into static defenses akin to Armor Class, essentially making the D20 attack mechanic universal to all types of attacks.

Having six different saving throws not only reverses the mechanical progression over the past ~years, but seems like it also makes 'smart play' more difficult: with seven different defenses, you have to spend more resources plugging your weaknesses, especially those defenses based on a character's dump stats. So what about people's experiences in the playtest and preview material? Has this been a problem for anyone or does it work better than it sounds on e-paper?

 

[Jack Daniel]

I think you're mistaken to call 5th ed's saving throws separate defensive stats. They're not, not really. They're ability checks.

 

[MerricB]

That's a very good question.

In 3E, it was quite possible to have a gap of 10 or more between your strong and weak saves, even at not very high levels.

Storm Giant 3E: Fort +17, Ref +8, Will +13
Hill Giant Dire Wereboar 3E: Fort +20, Ref +8, Will +12

A Pathfinder NPC Rogue 7: Fort +4, Ref +10, Will +3

In 4E, the base is just your flat stats. That basically is a range from -1 to +5 (max 20 in any stat). The proficiency bonus does get added to two of your saves, thus meaning you could potentially have a gap of 12 at the highest levels. The range becomes from -1 to +11.

Meanwhile, the DC for saving throws seems to be going to be in the range of 12 to 21. Thus, being proficient in a saving throw allows you to avoid the worst effects, but you'll tend to fail more than you succeed... we're not sure how magic items factor in, but given the aims of 5E, we should probably ignore them for this comparison.

Cheers!

 

[SigmaOne]

I've been play-testing with three players who are completely new to the game. I think this works out very well. I don't see it as reversing the trend. Quite the opposite, in fact. This is the most streamlined version yet. You already have your ability scores, you already use those bonuses (and penalties) for many things, and now you're re-using those same bonuses in this context as well. It's 3 (or 5) fewer things players have to keep track of, and it feels completely natural to me.

 

[Falling Icicle]

The ability scores are stats that are already used, and saving throws follow the same mechanic as everything else in the game: D20 + ability mod + proficiency bonus. I've found this makes things much simpler than before. Instead of having the six abilities plus AC plus three other saves/defenses, you now just have the six abilities and AC.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Do we still have the issue of "Well, you have six saving throws, but only three of them actually come up"?

 

[DDNFan]

Do we still have the issue of "Well, you have six saving throws, but only three of them actually come up"?

So far I've never seen a strength saving throw used in game. Charisma I can see vs charm spells, as force of character or personality to resist someone else overcoming your own. Con and Dex and Wis, sure. Intelligence? Against psionic attacks, spells like feeblemind.

 

[GSHamster]

So far I've never seen a strength saving throw used in game.

Strength saving throws usually come up as contested checks. Maybe something like a portcullis is closing and you're trying to hold it open long enough for your comrades to dive through.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I'd expect to see Strength saving throws cover things like breaking free from entanglement or grapples, and resisting knockdown and forced movement effects. As for Intelligence, I've always thought it should be the default ability for resisting illusion effects.

 

[Unwise]

My experience is that in practice, yes there are too many types of saves. I find that as a DM I have to fudge what saves are against in order to include Str, Int and Cha. PCs with proficiency in those stats have a raw deal at the moment. Without some guidance from the DMG there is no real consistency about when each save is used. Are mental attacks all against Wisdom? When would they be against Int or Cha?

Spells tend to be against Con, Wis and Dex. Str saves come up a fair bit at least, just not as saves. They are used for bashing down doors, holding onto ropes, removing rubble etc. I tend to use Cha saves for when you are being manipulated socially, even when that is magically backed up. So a succubus trying to charm you by talking to you etc.

Although I can live with 6 saves, I just don't see many instances where I would not be as happy or happier with just the 3 4e ones.