D&D 5E (D&D Next) - Seven Defensive Stats: Isn't that a bit too many?

[GMMichael]

Having six different saving throws not only reverses the mechanical progression over the past ~years, but seems like it also makes 'smart play' more difficult: with seven different defenses, you have to spend more resources plugging your weaknesses, especially those defenses based on a character's dump stats.

Maybe you're looking at the means instead of the ends. Should a PC be worried about having each of his saves as high as possible, or should he just make sure his hit points are maxed before going into a fight? Does it matter which saving throw you use against petrification, or should the character take a blindfold, or Ring of Protection against Petrification, with him?

I really hope by "dump stats" you're talking about the lower stats. Dump stats are for roll players.

And finally, to the question: yes, seven defenses is too much. Which is why I designed a game with three defensive skills, three abilities that can take damage, and three types of protection to reduce damage...so...only 9 defenses.

 

[Ashkelon]

The ability scores are stats that are already used, and saving throws follow the same mechanic as everything else in the game: D20 + ability mod + proficiency bonus. I've found this makes things much simpler than before. Instead of having the six abilities plus AC plus three other saves/defenses, you now just have the six abilities and AC.

That sounds all well and good...until you get to bonuses to individual saves. We have spells that give bonuses ranging from +1 to +1d4, features that give advantage to saving throw, proficiency to certain saving throws, and magic items that give bonuses to saving throws. At level 1 things look simple enough, but by the time you hit level 7, saving throws are far more complex than 3e saves or 4e defenses.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That sounds all well and good...until you get to bonuses to individual saves. We have spells that give bonuses ranging from +1 to +1d4, features that give advantage to saving throw, proficiency to certain saving throws, and magic items that give bonuses to saving throws. At level 1 things look simple enough, but by the time you hit level 7, saving throws are far more complex than 3e saves or 4e defenses.

Indeed, in the playtest there are quite a few things that give stuff like conditional advantage on specific saves, or bonuses to specific saves (some of those conditional), and it's probably the most complicated system I've seen AND has the 3E problem of saves being so wide that what's going to be extremely easy for one PC to make, will be virtually impossible for another (in retrospect, 2E did a hell of a better job than 3E on that).

 

[Chaltab]

Maybe you're looking at the means instead of the ends. Should a PC be worried about having each of his saves as high as possible, or should he just make sure his hit points are maxed before going into a fight? Does it matter which saving throw you use against petrification, or should the character take a blindfold, or Ring of Protection against Petrification, with him?

Is 'Ring of Protection against Petrification' a thing? Because that in and of itself is problematic. Unless you know you're going to be facing something that petrifies, like a Gorgon or a Basalisk, then it's an oddly specific thing to be dumping money into. A ring that enhances the Petrification defense stat

I really hope by "dump stats" you're talking about the lower stats. Dump stats are for roll players.

Huh? I'm not sure what value dump stats have to people interested in role-play*. You can do that without stats, see tumblr, livejournal, every forum ever... (Also, it's spelled role, as with an actor? Roll means 'tumble' or what a ball does along the ground. 'Roll play' makes me think of... something not safe for work. Or maybe Katamari Damacy.)

By dump stats I just meant the stats that your character doesn't need to focus on because they don't really have bearing on his or her job. Like STR for Wizards or INT for Barbarians.

And finally, to the question: yes, seven defenses is too much. Which is why I designed a game with three defensive skills, three abilities that can take damage, and three types of protection to reduce damage...so...only 9 defenses.

Heh. I don't mean for all games, obviously. If it fits your game it fits your game, but I think for D&D, especially a new edition trying to dial some of the complexity, seven is a bit much and spreads the system thinner than it should.

 

[Dausuul]

My experience is that in practice, yes there are too many types of saves. I find that as a DM I have to fudge what saves are against in order to include Str, Int and Cha. PCs with proficiency in those stats have a raw deal at the moment.

Not necessarily. Saving throw proficiency typically comes from your class, and there's no reason to believe the designers weight them all equally during class design.

If there were a feat that granted proficiency in a saving throw of your choice, that would be different.

Also, it's spelled role, as with an actor? Roll means 'tumble' or what a ball does along the ground. 'Roll play' makes me think of... something not safe for work. Or maybe Katamari Damacy.

DMMike is referring to a tired old dichotomy: The "role-player" versus the "roll-player." The implication is that anyone who makes a conscious decision to put an 8 in a stat he or she won't be using much is a shallow munchkin with no interest in anything but rolling dice and whacking monsters.

 

[Chaltab]

DMMike is referring to a tired old dichotomy: The "role-player" versus the "roll-player." The implication is that anyone who makes a conscious decision to put an 8 in a stat he or she won't be using much is a shallow munchkin with no interest in anything but rolling dice and whacking monsters.

Huh, that seems a bit presumptuous. Not to mention there's nothing wrong with making a character who just likes to bust skulls and leave the thinking to the others.

Either way I just meant that some stats will naturally be less important than others depending on what class you choose. Though that may also be a good argument for decoupling class effectiveness from Ability Scores (aka DTAS).