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So you enter the "Magic Shoppe", and inside you see...what ?

Besides...where do casters get their material components but from those who specialize in the handling of magic?

There are many mundane answers to this question. Do you really think it's that hard to get bat poop? Gems/Sulphur/Ores: Duh, mines.

For me, magic shops inserted into a setting where there are not actually mentioned in setting breaks immersion a bit for me. It also raises other assumptions, e.g., because there are priests who can raise the dead, "Joe Dummy the Commoner" can be resurrected by those priests and will be if his family asks.

Demand and Supply for low power magic items is probably equally high. Powerful items likely equally low. I particularly like how the Might & Magic series took this on starting in VI: The Armorer, General Store, Item Store, and Weaponsmith may have some special items, that have a small chance to be significantly powerful magic.

Also, I particularly like World Tree's take on artifacts: they have a known history and were good for their time, but would be a first year homework assignment at most magical academies now.

In D&D like worlds, to me, the existence of magic shops presents an assumption of "lots of high level characters". Most people are not adventurers.
 

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There are many mundane answers to this question. Do you really think it's that hard to get bat poop? Gems/Sulphur/Ores: Duh, mines.

And as you well know, some material components are a bit harder to acquire than others. Here's one:

"A bit of bone from an undead skeleton, zombie, ghoul, ghast, or mummy."
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scare.htm)


A Mage depending on that spell is going to want to be assured that the bone in question actually came from one of the undead creatures on that list, not just any piece of bone. That means the retriever in question will probably have to have gotten it personally.

Others requires straight up magic:
"Material Component A potion of bull’s strength, which you drink (and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects)."
(www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm)

IOW, for this spell to be useful to a PC, he either has to craft his own potions, he has to have access to a stash he's found, or he has to have someone to buy them from.

It also raises other assumptions, e.g., because there are priests who can raise the dead, "Joe Dummy the Commoner" can be resurrected by those priests and will be if his family asks.

Services also follow the laws of supply and demand. Just because it is available, it does not follow that YOU have access or can afford it. Being raised from the dead may be- heck, probably IS- quite expensive, especially to the family of Joe Dummy the Commoner. It may only be cast for those who are worshippers of the same faith. Or perhaps the divinity in question does not allow it to be cast.

It may also not be available where the body is, because no priest of sufficient level is present.

Powerful items likely equally low.

No, demand is probably high. SUPPLY will be low.
 
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Pretty much only adventurers are going to put in the research for a powerful magic item, so demand is going to stay low, or they're going to spend the time to make it themselves. A king or other nobility may have heard of a powerful item, but that's one guy wanting something that even in a fantasy world could be fictional.

Just how much bone counts as a "bit"? Are we talking a third of a finger? A knuckle? a bone flake? As for finding the undead: just follow your nose. The biggest problem with undeath would have to be the stench. It's a wonder adventurers seeking the evil necromancer don't just follow the smell of decay. Then again, that's why "Gentle Repose" exists in 3.X.
 
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Pretty much only adventurers are going to put in the research for a powerful magic item, so demand is going to stay low, or they're going to spend the time to make it themselves.

(Emphasis mine)

I'm sorry, but that is not the proper terminology- the word for what you're describing is "supply".

A king or other nobility may have heard of a powerful item, but that's one guy wanting something that even in a fantasy world could be fictional.

Consider the legend of The True Cross. Or the Spear of Longinus. Powerful items, according to legend. Lots of people wanted them...STILL want them. Real?

Just how much bone counts as a "bit"? Are we talking a third of a finger? A knuckle? a bone flake? As for finding the undead: just follow your nose. The biggest problem with undeath would have to be the stench.

The spell does not specify how much, but it DOES specify that the bone must be from one of those undead, at least two kinds of which- fleshless skeletons and desiccated, preserved mummies- would emit no smell at all.

IOW, the issue isn't the amount of bone needed for the spell, but the character of it, the nature of its source. If it isn't from one of those kind of undead, the spell will fizzle*. Is a discerning customer who is used to warping reality with words & gestures going to take the seller's word that the bone has said nature, or will he seek assurances?











* unless you are using HRs akin to the rules in AU/AE, which allow for variant spell effects when variant spell components are used.
 
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(Emphasis mine)

I'm sorry, but that is not the proper terminology- the word for what you're describing is "supply".

You are the one assuming a high supply of adventurers, not me. I've taken economics too: low supply of adventurers = low demand for powerful magic items.

As for Joe Dummy, I chose a patently ridiculous idea because I have seen it spread so much over these board and others of "has magic that can do x" = "magic that does whatever x is has a high supply".

Regarding the undead: let the necromancer and his army pass by, you're likely to find bits of bone in the dirt from his army. Without something like Gentle Repose, skeletons would still stink. Just not as bad as a zombie.

You have given me an interesting idea about a possibly evil nobility though. Raise Dead restricted to nobility, and even then only if they're under 40. The penalty: Death, followed by animation.

Any wizard who is relying on a single spell is an idiot, contradicting the very things wizards are supposed to be known for: intelligence.
 
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You are the one assuming a high supply of adventurers, not me. I've taken economics too: low supply of adventurers = low demand for powerful magic items.

You may need a refresher, then, because in economics terms, your equation is absolute nonsense. Supply and demand are represented by independently moving curves. If supply is low, it tells you NOTHING about demand unless you also know the price, which is set where the curves intersect.

Low supply can be met with low or high demand; high supply can be met with low or high demand. Low demand may occur when supplies are high or low, as may high demand.

Regarding the undead: let the necromancer and his army pass by, you're likely to find bits of bone in the dirt from his army. Without something like Gentle Repose, skeletons would still stink. Just not as bad as a zombie.
Depends on timing- after the flesh is gone, skeletons do not stink.

Furthermore, unless the army only consists of skeletons, zombies, ghouls, ghastly, or mummies, there is no guarantee that the bone shards scavenged in their wake will be useful as a component for the spell mentioned above.

That surety drops more if the shards were scavenged after a battle- odds will be good some of the shards will be from their opponents...especially if the necromancer's forces were victorious. Remember, the shards must come from undead, not just any corpses.

Any wizard who is relying on a single spell is an idiot, contradicting the very things wizards are supposed to be known for: intelligence.

I am not assuming that the wizard is relying on a single spell. I am saying that an intelligent wizard will want to ascertain the nature of his components, so that they won't fail merely because he got scammed when he purchased his components.
 
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There are many mundane answers to this question. Do you really think it's that hard to get bat poop? Gems/Sulphur/Ores: Duh, mines.

It can be. While any given region supports some population of bats, due to lack of habitat, lack of food sources, invading biological hazards can make one area largely devoid of bats, and in such places it can be quite difficult to get bat poop. If a given spell requires undead bones as a material component, in a region dominated by lawful good churches with enough law enforcement and good priests able to suppress the existence of necromancers in a given location - finding any undead there may be next to impossible. Resources for spell components are not universally equal in all locations.

For me, magic shops inserted into a setting where there are not actually mentioned in setting breaks immersion a bit for me. It also raises other assumptions, e.g., because there are priests who can raise the dead, "Joe Dummy the Commoner" can be resurrected by those priests and will be if his family asks.

In D&D terms, all spells have a cost. Resurrection is an expensive spell. Just because a priest can resurrect someone from the dead, doesn't it is cost-effective to do so. If due to a limit on the number of priests able to cast resurrection spells, or lack of enough components limits the number of resurrections that can be cast at all, and if the value of some persons exceed the value in others (a king versus a commoner), such limitations will limit who gets resurrected and who doesn't. Back in 1e play, most low level characters who die are never resurrected - their value is not important enough to justify the cost in bringing them back from the dead. There is a definitive cost in the use of spells, arcane and divine. Just because the parents of "Joe Dummy the Commoner" ask the priesthood to resurrect their son from the dead, doesn't mean it will happen. Things don't get done just because the technology is there to accomplish it, it has to be cost effective - there is more than moral values in the cost of resurrection.

Demand and Supply for low power magic items is probably equally high. Powerful items likely equally low. I particularly like how the Might & Magic series took this on starting in VI: The Armorer, General Store, Item Store, and Weaponsmith may have some special items, that have a small chance to be significantly powerful magic.

Also, I particularly like World Tree's take on artifacts: they have a known history and were good for their time, but would be a first year homework assignment at most magical academies now.

In D&D like worlds, to me, the existence of magic shops presents an assumption of "lots of high level characters". Most people are not adventurers.

You only need one person with the resources to pay for whatever powerful magic items needed in order to exist a high level of demand for any given thing. You don't need a thousand high level wizards to create a high demand for any commodity, you only need one person (or as few available) that has enough funds to pay for the purchase of such items in order for a high demand to exist. While demand can be affected by larger numbers of users, it doesn't have to be. You are making wild assumptions, that aren't necessarily true.
 


As far as I know there have never been Relic shops, though...

As in with a sign like "Ye Olde Relic Shoppe"? Probably not in the West, no. But there were merchants noted for selling relics. Since it was a practice which was illegal at certain points in time, some went "underground."

The reason? Relics were big business. Having a relic in your community was akin to having a valuable natural resource or modern-day tourist attraction. From the Wiki on Relics:

Economic effect
As holy relics attracted pilgrims and these religious tourists needed to be housed, fed, and provided with souvenirs, relics became a source of income not only for the destinations that held them, but for the abbeys, churches, and towns en route. Relics were prized as they were portable. They could be possessed, inventoried, bequeathed, stolen, and smuggled. They could add value to an established site or confer significance on a new location. Offerings made at a site of pilgrimage were an important source of revenue for the community who received them on behalf of the saint. According to Patrick Geary, "[t]o the communities fortunate enough to have a saint's remains in its church, the benefits in terms of revenue and status were enormous, and competition to acquire relics and to promote the local saint's virtues over those of neighboring communities was keen". Local clergy promoted their own patron saints in an effort to secure their own market share. On occasion guards had to watch over mortally ill holy men and women to prevent the unauthorized dismemberment of their corpses as soon as they died. Geary also suggests that the danger of someone murdering an aging holy man in order to acquire his relics was a legitimate concern.

Relics were used to cure the sick, to seek intercession for relief from famine or plague, to take solemn oaths, and to pressure warring factions to make peace in the presence of the sacred. Courts held relics since Merovingian times. St. Angilbert acquired for Charlemagne one of the most impressive collections in Christendom. An active market developed. Relics entered into commerce along the same trade-routes followed by other portable commodities. Matthew Brown likens a ninth-century Italian deacon named Deusdona, with access to the Roman catacombs, as crossing the Alps to visit monastic fairs of northern Europe much like a contemporary art dealer.

Canterbury was a popular destination for English pilgrims, who traveled to witness the miracle-working relics of Thomas Becket, the sainted archbishop of Canterbury who was martyred at the hands of knights of King Henry II in 1170. When Becket was martyred, his successor and the Canterbury chapter quickly used his relics to promote the cult of the as yet un-canonized martyr. The motivations included the assertion of the Church's independence against rulers, a desire to have an English (indeed Norman English) saint of European reputation, and the desire to promote Canterbury as a destination for pilgrimage. In the first years after Becket's death, donations at the shrine accounted for twenty-eight percent of the cathedral's total revenues.

In art
Many churches were built along pilgrimage routes. A number in Europe were either founded or rebuilt specifically to enshrine relics, (such as San Marco in Venice) and to welcome and awe the large crowds of pilgrims who came to seek their help. Romanesque buildings developed passageways behind the altar to allow for the creation of several smaller chapels designed to house relics. From the exterior, this collection of small rooms is seen as a cluster of delicate, curved roofs at one end of the church, a distinctive feature of many Romanesque churches. Gothic churches featured lofty, recessed porches which provided space statuary and the display of relics.

Historian and philosopher of art Hans Belting observed that in medieval painting, images explained the relic and served as a testament to its authenticity. In Likeness and Presence, Belting argued that the cult of relics helped to stimulate the rise of painting in medieval Europe.

(Edit)

Counterfeits
In the absence of real ways of assessing authenticity, relic-collectors became prey to the unscrupulous, and some extremely high prices were paid. Forgeries proliferated from the very beginning. Augustine denounced impostors who wandered around disguised as monks, making a profit from the sale of spurious relics. In the Admonitio Generalis of 789, Charlemagne ordered that "the false names of martyrs and the uncertain memorials of saints should not be venerated". The Fourth Lateran Council (1215) the Church condemned such abuses such as counterfeit relics and exaggerated claims.

Pieces of the True Cross were one of the most highly sought after such relics; many churches claimed to possess a piece of it, so many that John Calvin famously remarked that there were enough pieces of the True Cross to build a ship from, although a study in 1870 found that put together the claimed relics of the cross at that time weighed less than 1.7 kg.

(Edit)

The sale of relics is strictly forbidden by the Church. The Code of Canon Law states:[34]

§1190 §1 – "It is absolutely forbidden to sell sacred relics."
§1190 §2 – "Relics of great significance and other relics honored with great reverence by the people cannot be alienated validly in any manner or transferred permanently without the permission of the Apostolic See."

(Emphasis mine.)

Buying & selling wasn't the only form of commerce in relics. What men are willing to buy, they're willing to steal...or pay others to.

Some of the lengths to which towns would go in their quest to obtain the most popular relics have been documented by Patrick Geary in his book Furta Sacra: Thefts of Relics in the Central Middle Ages. He notes that towns were usually reluctant to simply buy or trade relics. After all, why would anyone willingly sell or part with a miracle-performing relic? Presumably they would only do so it if it no longer possessed its powers, meaning that the relic was worthless. Instead, towns often stole the relics they desired, or surreptitiously bought them while publicly claiming to have stolen them. Relic thefts were highly organized affairs, and the successful thieves were treated as local heroes. Geary tells the story of the Italian town of Bari which in 1087 commissioned a team of thieves to obtain the remains of Saint Nicolas (known more popularly today as Santa Claus) from the Turkish town of Myra. The expedition was a success, and for decades Bari basked in the glory of being the town that owned the stolen bones of Santa Claus.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/archive/permalink/the_medieval_relic_trade/

And of course, who around here hasn't heard of Nazi Occultitsts questing for things like the Holy Grail, the Ark of the Covenant, shards of The True Cross, and the Spear of Longinus? They spent real reichmarks on that.
 
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And that's just for Christian stuff- before Europeans ever really heard of pharaonic Egypt, there was a thriving trade in relics from that empire...real and counterfeit.
 

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