Be honest, how long would it really take you to notice all of this stuff...?

By "living, breathing world" I was referring to the style of play that puzzled @Manbearcat, namely setting out backstory in advance, and statting it all up (either literally or notionally), even though this is not for the purposes of creating a classic Gygaxian/Pulsipherian challenge game. (An example would be where the GM has decided that (say) the mayor of the village has such-and-such stats, even though there is no expectation that the players are meant to learn what those stats are and use that knowledge as a resource for their own clever play.)

I'm not referring particularly to PC backstory, although that can be flexible too. I'm referring primarily to world backstory. Ie, the stuff that @Manbearcat was talking about in his post.

For instance, and to take an example from my own campaign: why is the Raven Queen on good terms with Kas, even though she hates undead and Kas is a vampire lord? I don't know - although it has been established in play that she is on good terms with him, the reason for this hasn't been established yet. When the time comes for me to make a decision, I will be doing my best to make a decision with maximum dramatic heft, both in terms of shock value and generating momentum.

Thanks. I misunderstood a little thats why some of my response doesn't make sense.

To give a PC-oriented example: it turned out that the human wizard in my campaign was really a deva who had taken human form, and lost his memories, for one of his incarnations. But when he died fighting an angel of Bane, he was reborn once more as a deva and regained his memory of 1000 lifetimes.

The PC had been in play from 1st level. This particular bit of backstory was brought to light at 16th level.

I like this, but given my perception of your dming style from posts of yours, I would imagine this was the PC's idea or am I wrong on this assumption? If this idea was entirely hatched up by the DM and he placed this in the PCs backstory without consultation with the PC, would you have an issue with it? I'm just trying to understand how much of an input you allow the DM.


An additional feature of flexible backstory is not determining the mechanical representation of a gameworld element until it is needed for play. In 4e, this means using all the monster-building tools that have been discussd in this thread. In Robin Laws' HeroQuest revised, this means using the system for setting DCs, where the DCs are higher the more successes in a row the players have had. In Burning Wheel - which uses "objecive" rather than "level appropriate" DCs - the Adventure Burner (which is that game's equivalent of a GM's guide) suggests not statting up the big bad until the last feasible moment of prep, because you want that NPC, in mechanical terms, to be a suitable challenge for the PCs.

I'm not a fan of the latter idea from the Adventure Burner. It would suggest that PCs can expend all their dallies and specials on the little fights before the big bad and as DM you would have to scale down the big bad for it to be a suitable challenge for the PCs when they do encounter him. This is where it seems the world is not intuitive/natural. As DM the Adventure Burner seems to suggest deliberately manipulating the big bad for a fair challenge as opposed to preparing the monster and so what happens during the adventure/session does not affect your big bad unless it was part of the in-game fiction influenced by the PCs. I'm more of a fan of let the chips fall where they fall.
 

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I like this, but given my perception of your dming style from posts of yours, I would imagine this was the PC's idea or am I wrong on this assumption?
It was the player's idea. At the start of the campaign his wizard had, as backstory, former cultist of the Raven Queen. Over the course of play (15 levels, approximately 3 years in real life) his PC became increasingly connected to a range of gods, and was a multi-class invoker. He decided the PC would make more sense rebuilt as a deva invoker multi-classed to wizard. (In 4e multi-classing is a feat that gives you modest abilities associated with the multi-class.) The actual transition events we worked out together - eg I think I'm the one who suggested that his imp familiar would be a spy for Levistus, placed there on instructions from Bane.

If this idea was entirely hatched up by the DM and he placed this in the PCs backstory without consultation with the PC, would you have an issue with it?
A big issue, yes.

I don't mind the GM springing surprises on the player, even including surprises about PC backstory. But the player has to have asked for it (either expressly or implicitly) so that it fits with where the player is taking the PC. Eg with the same PC, back when he was still a human, I placed an encounter with his mother as a prisoner in a goblin cavern complex. This made sense given the player-author backstory (family scattered when they fled their home city as refugees following a humanoid assault). But I decided to actually introduce the PC's mother into the game.

In my view there can be no hard-and-fast rules here, because different players have different degrees of tolerance for GM surprises, and different degrees of desire to have the GM pick up on their backstory and run with it. That said, I wouldn't want to run a game in which every player is a turtle who retreats into his/her shell at the merest hint of GM playing with backstory. That doesn't sound like very much fun to me.

I'm not a fan of the latter idea from the Adventure Burner. It would suggest that PCs can expend all their dallies and specials on the little fights before the big bad and as DM you would have to scale down the big bad for it to be a suitable challenge for the PCs when they do encounter him. This is where it seems the world is not intuitive/natural. As DM the Adventure Burner seems to suggest deliberately manipulating the big bad for a fair challenge as opposed to preparing the monster and so what happens during the adventure/session does not affect your big bad unless it was part of the in-game fiction influenced by the PCs. I'm more of a fan of let the chips fall where they fall.
I think the Adventure Burner advice is a bit conflicted. Burning Wheel is based - and very strongly based - around "objective" DCs. But by D&D standards it has relatively modest scaling, in part to make those objective DCs workable in a practical sense. It also has a range of devices - both mechanical and GMing techniques - to handle PC failure, which is expected to occur much more frequently than is the case in D&D. So it's very much a "chips fall where they fall" system.

The main worry that motivates the Adventure Burner advice is that if you stat up the NPC too early, the actual resolution of what should be an epic confrontation will fall flat, for rocket-tag type reasons (on one or the other sides). Once you know what the PCs will look like, mechanically, when they meet the big bad (BW doesn't have levels, but rather skill numbers) then you can set the big bad. There is nothing really analogous in BW to expending dailies or specials, so there's no particular need to modulate difficulty to reflect the PC status when they encounter the NPC. (BW does have fate points and similar things, but the game is designed so that the players should be accruing plenty of them as they come into their final confrontation - if they are not, then the gameplay has misfired in much bigger ways than are involved in statting up an NPC.)

Because D&D doesn't have modest scaling (even 5e has very rapidly scaling hp), and doesn't have the devices BW uses to handle PC failure, and is chock full of dailies and similar "specials", I don't think the BW advice is immediately applicable. At best it can be suggestive.

Finally, on this point, I don't get the bit about intuitive/natural. The NPC has no stats until the GM writes them. Provided the stats that the GM writes up are consistent with what has actually been established, in prior play, about the NPC, how is one set of stats more or less intuitive/natural than another? Eg if all we know about the NPC wizard is that (i) she has lots of followers, and (ii) she once cast a Gate spell, then either of the following strikes me as equally intuitive/natural:

(A) She is a high level wizard who can memorise and cast Gate and wields a Rod of Rulership;

(B) She is a modest level wizard who has a high CHA, as well as an empty parchment in her library that once was a scroll with a Gate spell on it.​

I don't see how it makes any difference to the verisimilitude of the play experience if the GM decides this in advance, or on the spot.
 

Chances are ol' Toughnose is only going to miss on a '1' so the Giant's chance of survival is mighty close to nil, what matters is how long the Giant hangs around to clobber Toughnose - sure his AC might be in the lower stratosphere but Giants tend to hurt you when they hit you and the more chances they get the more likely Toughnose's nose might get a little bent.
The point about minions is that they just provide a different mathematical configuration for working this out.

Defences up, to hit up, defences down, damage down. I posted a worked example upthread.
 

The point about minions is that they just provide a different mathematical configuration for working this out.
I get that. I also think it's both unnecessary and destructive to internal consistency that a given monster can have two or three or four sets of numbers attached depending solely on what it's fighting.

Let's look at it another way. You've got a 4th-level PC with 35 h.p. (I think that number's possible in any edition), and no matter what it does or where it goes or who it fights - a single defenseless peasant or a couple of Bugbears or a cadre of Giants - it still has those 35 h.p. along with all the other attributes and abilities that go with its class, race, level, and equipment. A monster or NPC should work just the same as this - a particular individual at a particular time has the h.p. and attributes and abilities that go with its race, class (if any), level or HD or equivalent, and equipment (if any) regardless of and independent from the capabilities of whatever is challenging it to a fight. Either that, or PCs' abilities should change to suit their opponents; which would be equally as bad.

During world design if I put a mountain on the northeast corner of the map and stick a Giant in there, that Giant's got 95 h.p. (if it hasn't been hurt) no matter whether the party encounter it at 1st level or 5th or 15th. In my current campaign I stuck a lich's hidden lair in a particular spot with an end-game adventure in mind, and then had a 3rd-level party come within a whisker of blundering right into it during another adventure in the same area. Had they done so they might not all have died but the alternative would be (by choice or by force) serving a new master whose aims and goals aren't exactly nice; and turning the campaign on its ear in the process.

That lich had the same stats then as it does now and most likely will when eventually met. So do all his various servants, pets, buddies, and so forth; they'd have been no different if the 3rd-level group walked in than they'll be when the 10th-level group gets there. I fail to see why this is a problem; I further fail to grasp what the 4e designers were thinking when they dreamed up the system you've been explaining, unless they had intentionally decided to throw internal consistency to the winds.

Lanefan
 

I also think it's both unnecessary and destructive to internal consistency that a given monster can have two or three or four sets of numbers attached depending solely on what it's fighting.
The "necessity" arises from the desire to have smooth and engaging gameplay. It's the same reason that most people, if they want to run a combat of 100 vs 100, will look for mechanical tooset other than core D&D combat. (I gather 5e is going to come with such a Battlesystem built in.)

As to "destructive to internal consistency", how so? What internal consistency has been destroyed? If the toughness of the ogre, or giant, or whatever, is constant, where is the destruction? Heck, I've preserved internal consistency of gameworlds across changes in system eg from D&D to Rolemaster.
 

Personally, I'd rather model that directly by the monsters getting tougher over time (in the fiction) to match the PCs, rather than saying it's the same monster but I changed the stats so he's still a challenge. Although I'm reading my own sentence and I don't think I'm explaining myself well. Oh well.

The monster in question is normally dead. Seriously, how many monsters survive a round with PCs?

Obviously the 25th-level type is better at what he does than his 3rd-level self; and the combat will be shorter. But"shorter" doesn't necessarily equate to "one-hit kill" and nor should it

I notice you're no longer using ogres as your example here ;)

And if the fighter is missing on a 1 and the giant is hitting on a 20 do you really think the fight is worth fighting out in detail?
 

I get that. I also think it's both unnecessary and destructive to internal consistency that a given monster can have two or three or four sets of numbers attached depending solely on what it's fighting.

How about in the same encounter? Recently, the player in my PBP on here fought a giant, tentacled, sea monster riffed off the Darkmantle. The PC and NPCs were on a boat. The setup was thus:

- A flatboat being attacked from below by the sea monster.

- NPC daughter who was a Minion and had a trait to buff her defenses when adjacent to her father, an at-will to "get tiny" such that she makes herself a non-target, and an Encounter Move Action to squirm out of trouble.

- NPC father who was a Standard Soldier who had several means to protect his daughter; at-will immediate interrupt to take an attack for her and then deal one in return, an Encounter power to give her temp HP and do AoE damage, an at-will mark attack with the long-oar he was using as a polearm.

- The Sea Monster. This creature was mechanically iterated as 4 parts.

1) Minion tentacles that would grope, grab, and pull you into the water. These were up at the beginning for a few rounds before the sea monster proper reared its head. A foreshadowing.

2) Challenging Terrain around the boat which were the many unseen tentacles that would grasp and pull you down into the depths to be drown and devoured.

3) The Elite Sea Monster itself which had an aura and its own suite of attacks; a 'rock the boat attack" that knocked people into the water (refreshed on bloodied), its own tentacle attacks (that did damage and grabbed and pulled people into the water), and it could also "summon (mechanically)" several "summoned tentacles" (basically minions that, when killed, cause damage to the Elite itself) that it could channel attacks through as a Minor Action.


I would assume that knowledge of the machinery of these make-believe things would be problematic for internal consistency and thus immersion for you (and for others)? In play, these mechanical components all worked to enhance emotional investment, dramatic tension, and overall immersion for the player. It was pretty awesome. The little girl narrowly escaped death on several occasions as the PC and NPC worked to protect her while slaying the beast (and surviving themselves) and the NPC (father) was almost drowned in the effort. It was a desperate, frightening battle in fighting the beast in its own element.

My guess is that, if I ran the fight 20 times, the girl (minion) would perish perhaps 8ish times (40ish % chance). That is due to all of the various mechanical constructs at work (including PC and NPC tactical options). The Minion rules (amongst others) were central to making this fight thematically and tactically deep. Process simulation and symmetrical build components would never allow that % nor would it allow the kind of tactically rich choices made by the parties involved and the harrowing, narrow escapes. The death rate of the little girl would have been extreme (19 out of 20 or more) regardless of the tactical decisions made by the involved parties. Just the brunt force of the math and the lack of means to protect her would have dictated that. That genre trope just couldn't become manifest, or at least not in any compelling way.
 


Umm...it shows up plenty of places. Its just less obvious than the Natural Numbers. You could make the same argument about zero.
Numbers - and I mean all numbers, including natural ones, do not appear in nature. Numbers exist only in the mind as abstract tools that are immensely useful in modelling in a meaningful way the 'reality' around us. In that vein, imaginary numbers (i.e. the root of minus 1) are extremely useful. Just to cite a couple of instances they are used in electronics and they are part of the fundamental mathematical structure of Quantum Mechanics.
 

You're missing my point about reification [MENTION=5875]dan[/MENTION]nyA. The problem comes when physicists try to treat math as having direct, real world existence. They are trying to make the abstraction real. It doesn't work because math is full of stuff that is really useful in math but has no real world existence.

I used to be a physicist and...that's not what physicists do, IME. As a species, they tend to be very tentative about declaring something real. At best, when referring to mathematical abstractions in physical models, most physicists would refer to their "reality" as irrelevant (barring evidence to the contrary). I mean, I've even had discussions about whether or not electrons are "real".

TBH, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], your paragraph sounds like " disgruntled studentism".

On the other hand, I agree with the general point that HP are hopelessly non-simulatory. In general, I find the whole Sim crowd a little incoherent. That is, physical worlds and laws cannot be used to simulate plot driven (or at least "plot aware") fantasy stories. The resistance to "meta" mechanics (and refusal to accept that HP are one) totally baffle me. It seems to me that the entire effort must be driven by other psychological motivations which remain unclear to me. (At least within the framework of DnD.)
 

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