D&D 5E Pimp Slapping the Wizard!: A little math

[ccooke]

You're right, Otto's Irresistable Dance is much more effective.

Gives the Fighter Disadvantage on every attack. Assuming a dex of 14, that's +8 vs an AC of 21, hits 20% of the time. On a hit, deal 1d8+2 damage, so the concentration check is always going to be against a DC of 10. Our 16 con wizard can pass that 70% of the time, so it'll take an average of about 7 attacks to break the wizard's concentration, at which point he can cast it again. Alternatively, the fighter can spend his Action trying to throw off the dance. But since it's DC 19 against his non-proficient wis saves, even Indomitable isn't going to be much help there.

All that aside, class pvp isn't really the best way to look at game balance. More prudent to ask is which is more effective against a goblin horde? 8 attacks or a meteor swarm? Which is more effective against a Balor? 8 attacks or a crippling debuff? Which is more effective at getting the party out of the imminently exploding volcano? 8 attacks or teleport? Which is more effective at communicating with the mysterious fae race you just encountered? 8 attacks or comprehend languages? Which is more effective at unlocking the ancient and sealed chest of ultimate power which is forged from unbreakablinium? 8 attacks or Knock?

And so on.

Okay, so let's look at your examples.
A goblin horde? If it's small enough, a metoer swarm is a good answer. If it's an actual horde, that's only going to take out a few chunks... and you can do it once per day. You'll need something more creative to deal with a full-sized horde, and any character might come up with it. Sneak in and assassinate their leader in a publicly awful way to demoralise them? Poison their supplies? Round up an army to defeat them? All of these are things that any character work with. If the horde is small enough that you can wipe it out with four 40' radius bursts, then it's also probably small enough that the party could probably kill them all without using up your one 9th-level spell slot, which is a massive resource.
If you can wipe out most of the hoard with a 9th-level spell slot, leaving a normal fight with some tougher creatures... then the DM expected you to use meteor swarm on them and planned ahead to give everyone in the party time to shine. Thank them, later.

A Balor? A Balor should be able to rip a 20th level Wizard to shreds one to one. Try "A crippling debuff AND 8 attacks". Or "7 attacks and set up the 20th-level rogue for sneak attack". Or any other combination that demonstrates that a party consists of a group of people who need to cooperate to survive.

Exploding Volcano? If the volcano is exploding so quickly that only the Wizard can save the party, then the DM is probably unfairly favouring that player. Or, it's the Wizard's opportunity to shine and every other player will get a similar opportunity later. If the time isn't so short, then a heroic run for the exit (possibly with stronger characters carrying slower ones) makes for a rather more exciting scenario. There's also the whole "Damn, the only place I can reliably teleport us is a week's journey from where we need to be" problem.

Communicating with a fae race? This is the one that a Wizard can shine at, yes. So could a fighter (or anyone else) with the Sage background, or anyone with the right language picked.

Unlocking an ancient sealed chest? You want someone with proficiency in Thieves Tools for that, since Knock will almost certainly cause any guards nearby to come running. What's more, Knock only works on a single lock or magical effect at a time. Your wizard is, at best, a second-rate replacement in this case.

Basically, one class having lots of awesome abilities doesn't make them overpowered. I could give you a list of things that a Fighter is likely to be better at than a Wizard, but it wouldn't make any difference since in general a party will be better than any one individual PC anyway.

 

[ccooke]

I pointed this out some time ago... < weeps >

Oops. So you did.

Um... I was just making sure everyone noticed. Yeah.

 

[Capricia]

I could give you a list of things that a Fighter is likely to be better at than a Wizard, but

That'd be great, thanks.

 

[andreww]

That math is fine, but it doesn't work for a level 20 wizard.

View attachment 62600

Level 1, so not only can they cast it 4 times with their level 1 slots, but 4 times with their level 2, and so on. And it lasts the whole round, so it applies to every attack. So if you want to run the number against a level 20 wizard, you should assume AC 21.

Shield is pretty much one of the best picks for spell mastery at level 18 making it at will and effectively giving the Wizard +5AC for ever. Also AC16 is a low assumption for level 20. Dex18 and Mage Armour gives you 17. High Elf Wizards will be rocking Dex20 for AC18. Mountain Dwarf Wizards will be using half plate with Dex 14 also for AC17. Shield will bring them to 22 at which point you might conceivably choose to add a concentration buff like Haste for another +2.

At level 20 the Elf is probably looking at Int 20, Dex 20, Con 14 and so has about 124hp. The dwarf is looking at Int 20, Dex 14, Con 20 for 184hp. So try again against AC22-25 and I don't think you will come close to one round killing the Wizard.

 

[Umbran]

Shove doesn't require an attack roll. You forego one attack, instead initiating a Strength[Athletics] check against the target's Strength[Athletics] or Dexterity[Acrobatics]. Shield does absolutely nothing to it.

I think that's an incorrect interpretation.

"Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee
attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or
push it away from you."

You aren't making a standard roll against AC, but you are explicitly still making an attack, not forgoing one. I'd simply apply the Shield bonus to the target's check, rather than to their static AC - basically, the fighter may end up shoving ineffectually against a shield of force instead of the wizard.

Even if you say Shield's bonus does not apply to the shove itself, it can still trigger on the attack, and will apply to all the other attacks against the wizard while he's down, until the start of the Wizard's next turn - it still isn't turning just one attack into a miss - it is defending against a flurry (maybe a large flurry, if you're using the fighter + rouge pattern).

Basically, running the math as if the Wizard has *no* defense that applies, and is just a plain AC 16, is probably a weak analysis of actual effectiveness in play.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You aren't making a standard roll against AC, but you are explicitly still making an attack, not forgoing one. I'd simply apply the Shield bonus to the target's check, rather than to their static AC - basically, the fighter may end up shoving ineffectually against a shield of force instead of the wizard.

Sure, but that's very much fiat/house rules, I don't think it's just interpreting the rules, and I don't think many DMs would do that (I could be wrong). I know I wouldn't.

Even if you say Shield's bonus does not apply to the shove itself, it can still trigger on the attack, and will apply to all the other attacks against the wizard while he's down, until the start of the Wizard's next turn - it still isn't turning just one attack into a miss - it is defending against a flurry (maybe a large flurry, if you're using the fighter + rouge pattern).

This, however, is RAW, AFAIK. So it does help if you see the beatdown coming. If only the Fighter could do likewise against mind-control spells.

 

[ccooke]

That'd be great, thanks.

Why? The entire point of my last post was that lists like that aren't useful, because they pretend that nobody else in the party is able to do anything. In every case on your list, I gave you examples of what a non-wizard could do to solve the situation. In every case on any list I came up with, you could simply say that a wizard could do some particular set of things to be "better".

It's a useless distinction.

I could say "Well, an archer fighter would be far better placed to win an archery contest". You could then claim that a Wizard using some combination of spells and abilities would be better. Or you could say that an archery contest isn't as critical as defeating a Balor (although you would be objectively wrong in that case, since "defeating a balor" and "winning an archery contest" are assumed to be challenges set by the DM, and therefore their total difficulty and their importance to the overall plot can't be judged in isolation. If the balor is a meaningless sidequest and the archery contest gains you the support of a valuable noble, that's one thing. Or the balor might be your ultimate nemesis and the archery contest something your fighter has invented to fleece some overconfident nobles.

 

[Nagol]

Um... isn't Shove an action and as such would replace four attacks rather than one?

No. It replaces a single attack.

Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

 

[ccooke]

Sure, but that's very much fiat/house rules, I don't think it's just interpreting the rules, and I don't think many DMs would do that (I could be wrong). I know I wouldn't.

It's even going against the RAW: The Shield spell explicitly provides a bonus to AC (not "against an attack") and an immunity to Magic Missile. Nothing else.

This, however, is RAW, AFAIK. So it does help if you see the beatdown coming. If only the Fighter could do likewise against mind-control spells.

Well, that doesn't seem to be a thing I'd expect a Fighter to have. There's probably a feat for it, though.

Fighters in fiction are much more likely to be the sorts to shrug off an effect after it's applied, and that's what the Fighter gets. By level 20, they effectively have advantage on all saves three times. Given that all of the old save-or-die spells I've seen have a save every round now, that will help enforce a maximum duration for any mind control spell.

 

[Obryn]

Shield is pretty much one of the best picks for spell mastery at level 18 making it at will and effectively giving the Wizard +5AC for ever.

Oh goodness, I forgot about Spell Mastery. Yes, Shield is a top choice for it, no doubt.