D&D 5E My New Players Have Quit 5th Edition

[MonsterEnvy]

It's unlikely in an "open the door, there's the monster" situation. But the bugbear is designed for surprise attacks. If this thing sneaks up on the Wizard at the back of the party (+6 Stealth vs. 13 passive perception; 65% chance), that mage is toast (27.5% chance of dealing less than 16 damage, if the DM even decides to roll for it).

Your ignoring that the rest of the party also has several different passive perceptions. I just played a game with a rogue with 17 passive perception. Also the Wizard is supposed to be in the middle not the back to make sure stuff like that does not happen.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Your ignoring that the rest of the party also has several different passive perceptions. I just played a game with a rogue with 17 passive perception. Also the Wizard is supposed to be in the middle not the back to make sure stuff like that does not happen.

We're talking about level 1 here. 17 Passive Perception is not possible at level 1 unless the Rogue put his highest score into Wisdom, and took Expertise in Perception. The highest Passive Perception score we can reasonably see at level 1 is 15.

Also, note that the Bugbear doesn't have to beat everyone's passive perception, just the character he's targeting. Only the target has to be surprised.

Let's do the math. Let's crunch the numbers using the pre-gen Wizard.

The bugbear has a 65% chance of sneaking up on the Wizard. It has a 60% chance to hit, and a 72.5% chance of dealing lethal damage (or 100%, if the DM takes the average). All told, that's a 28.3% for the bugbear to assassinate the mage (or 39% if the DM takes the average damage).

Of course, that's all assuming the Wizard is at full hp. At lower hp, That 72.5% very quickly approaches 100%. If the mage is at, say, half hp (so the bugbear only needs 12 damage for a kill), that's a 94.5% chance of dealing lethal on a hit. Factoring in the chance to surprise and the chance to hit, that makes it 36.9% to assassinate.

(I'm rounding to three figures for the sake of sanity)

 

[Blackwarder]

The definition of challenge rating in the book actually says "An appropriately equipped and well-rested party of four adventurers should be able to defeat a creature that has a challenge rating equal to their level without suffering any casualties."

Bold added, in favorable conditions the bugbear should be able to outright kill a character, they are the scary sneaky kind of goblins, for a first level party, if he gets the drop on you it's probably gona hurt.

I love monsters like that, they bring the exploration pillar and the combat pillar together like no other.

Warder

 

[jadrax]

The bugbear has a 65% chance of sneaking up on the Wizard. It has a 60% chance to hit, and a 72.5% chance of dealing lethal damage (or 100%, if the DM takes the average). All told, that's a 28.3% for the bugbear to assassinate the mage (or 39% if the DM takes the average damage).

For a CR1 creature that seems about right to me. The odds are against it happening even to the wizard, but yeah if you get bushwhacked by a CR1 creature at first level, there should be a non-negligible chance of death.

 

[GX.Sigma]

For a CR1 creature that seems about right to me. The odds are against it happening even to the wizard, but yeah if you get bushwhacked by a CR1 creature at first level, there should be a non-negligible chance of death.

I dunno. To me, "1 in 3 chance someone dies in the first round" doesn't match up with "you should be able to beat it without anyone dying."

 

[Blackwarder]

I dunno. To me, "1 in 3 chance someone dies in the first round" doesn't match up with "you should be able to beat it without anyone dying."

Only if they are surprised.
Only if the bugbear attack the weakest class.
Only if it do max damage to said weakest character.
etc etc...

And as I said before "should be able" does not mean "guaranteed" it means a good chance.
Couple that with the fact that unless the monster deal twice the max hp of the character and kills it outright than you got death saving throws and the other party members to help.

Warder

 

[jadrax]

I dunno. To me, "1 in 3 chance someone dies in the first round" doesn't match up with "you should be able to beat it without anyone dying."

That only applies in a fair fight, not when one side is ambushing the other.

The same way a CR1 creature probably is going to a lot better in a fight than its CR if you put it behind fortifications.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Only if they are surprised.
Only if the bugbear attack the weakest class.
Only if it do max damage to said weakest character.
etc etc...

The probability I gave accounted for all that. I'm not just saying there's a 28% lethality chance if he gets the surprise attack off. I'm saying, if the bugbear wants to sneak up on the party, before you roll any dice, there is a 28% chance the bugbear successfully surprises the Wizard and kills him (the probability is almost the same for the Rogue, so there's no way he doesn't have a viable target). You can't argue with math.

That only applies in a fair fight, not when one side is ambushing the other.

The same way a CR1 creature probably is going to a lot better in a fight than its CR if you put it behind fortifications.

But the bugbear is explicitly an ambusher. Why not assume it's going to do what it's best at? I'd turn your statement around: a bugbear that isn't ambushing is like an orc in disadvantageous terrain. Or like fighting a dragon in a cave where it can't fly.

 

[jadrax]

But the bugbear is explicitly an ambusher. Why not assume it's going to do what it's best at?

There has to be a baseline for a CR system to work, and the base line is fair fight.

You cant have a system where your expected to mentally adjust the challenge for an ambush, unless the creatures are actually good at ambush. It's counter intuitive.

 

[GX.Sigma]

There has to be a baseline for a CR system to work, and the base line is fair fight.

You cant have a system where your expected to mentally adjust the challenge for an ambush, unless the creatures are actually good at ambush. It's counter intuitive.

Should the CR system also assume that a dragon will stand on the ground and let people hit it?

To put it another way: If the bugbear was exactly the same, but didn't have the Stealth skill and the ambush damage, do you think it would still have the same CR and XP value? Of course not.