D&D 5E Egregious TPK retcon in Hoard of the Dragon Queen

[YourSwordIsMine]

If you poke a dragon in the eye, you deserve to get wasted... That's not what you call a "smart move".

Especially at 3rd level...


Still, any game without risk isn't much fun IMHO. Let the players learn from bad decisions.

 

[Daern]

Normally, I let 'em die as the dice roll, but in this case I really meant to sort of show the dragon's might first before going right for them. Not a good DMing moment, like I sai it was late. Rolling 12d10 for damage...
The Hoard module sets up the scenario and sort of says, "Dont kill them." but what else is the beast gonna do when it finally takes a tough hit?

 

[ExploderWizard]

They only serve as a "valuable lesson" if they make sense and flow from a chain of poor decisions. A single poor decision or bad rolls leading to a TPK? Tends to seem like bad game/adventure design or DMing (and usually is, I would say as a DM).

The other claim re: "frontal assaults" is just fanciful nonsense, imo/ime.

Actually a TPK makes sense whenever it is the outcome of player decisions, bad luck, etc. I would say deciding to attack a dragon that much more powerful than you qualifies as a bad enough decision to be potentially fatal.

Fanciful nonsense or not, intelligent decisions save character lives.

Friendly, otherwise-honest NPCs have directly told them to IIRC.

I am reminded of the old but classic- if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you?

Normally, I let 'em die as the dice roll, but in this case I really meant to sort of show the dragon's might first before going right for them. Not a good DMing moment, like I sai it was late. Rolling 12d10 for damage...
The Hoard module sets up the scenario and sort of says, "Dont kill them." but what else is the beast gonna do when it finally takes a tough hit?

Well, if a module includes something capable of killing if the players make unwise decisions and then comes out and says "don't kill them" the adventure is advocating stupidity and quite poor IMHO.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Actually a TPK makes sense whenever it is the outcome of player decisions, bad luck, etc. I would say deciding to attack a dragon that much more powerful than you qualifies as a bad enough decision to be potentially fatal.

Fanciful nonsense or not, intelligent decisions save character lives.

One bad decision from one PC forcing everyone to re-roll their characters and so on is not, in my experience and opinion, good, interesting, or fun DMing outside of CoC/DCC.

I am reminded of the old but classic- if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you?

I don't entirely disagree, but any DM who rolls that way must never, ever, ever, ever complain that he can't convince his players to trust his NPCs. Ever. He is forbidden.

Well, if a module includes something capable of killing if the players make unwise decisions and then comes out and says "don't kill them" the adventure is advocating stupidity and quite poor IMHO.

Yes, that's kind of the issue here.

 

[Desh-Rae-Halra]

They only serve as a "valuable lesson" if they make sense and flow from a chain of poor decisions. A single poor decision or bad rolls leading to a TPK? Tends to seem like bad game/adventure design or DMing (and usually is, I would say as a DM).

The other claim re: "frontal assaults" is just fanciful nonsense, imo/ime.



Friendly, otherwise-honest NPCs have directly told them to IIRC.

Ok, I have to chime in here. I dont think TPK's are actually good in almost any case. Why do I say this? Because I play to have a story. A story doesnt make much sense or hold much appeal if the Protagonists are all wiped out.

I guess I have to wonder how much of a story Star Wars (Episode IV) would have been if instead of outrunning the Star Destroyer, Han, Chewie, Obi Wan, Luke, r2D2, and C3P0 would have been blown away by a group of Tie Fighters. What happens then? Some other group with a Jedi, and some droids, and smugglers take up the quest? How many cycles of protagonists can you kill and still keep people engaged?

I get that some people like that DM vs PCs angle. Or like to play the game where you have to be uber cautious about everything you do, the rogue must search every 10' before anyone walks on it otherwise a trap might TPK the party.
I personally just dont get enjoyment out of those styles of games. If a TPK is possible, for me it better be story related and the PCs better have a clear idea that no one might make it out alive. Its one thing when you finally get to the BBEG and you know it is powerful and will have to use every advantage possible....But 12d10 vs low level characters? Come on.

~Desh

 

[TheRustyOne]

To be fair to the adventure, two things. First, the module pretty clearly states to have the dragon breathe on NPC's manning the tower first, to demonstrate its power, and secondly, it flees when it takes I think its 24 total points of damage, because it's heart isn't in this fight. I don't think it's poor module design because the OP decided to breathe on the party without looking at stats first.

 

[Boarstorm]

I feel like this encounter is being misrepresented.

First off, the dragon is only half-interested in the attack in the first place. It wants to leave if given ANY justification. In fact, as written, the dragon leaves the field of battle after suffering only very minor injuries (I don't remember the exact number, but the bowshot mentioned in the OP is close to its limit).

Secondly, the PCs are accompanied by a refilling stock of NPCs. At any given time, there should be TWENTY NPC guards up on the tower with them. Getting that minor damage should be trivial with bounded accuracy.

Thirdly, the dragon is explicitly stated to attack the NPCs with its breath weapon, leaving the PCs alone unless they do something truly outrageous to draw its attention (just another arrow in a sea of them probably doesn't qualify regardless of the damage it does. How's the dragon to know which person shot that particular arrow?).

As an aside, how does a line breath weapon hit the whole party? Were they literally lined up in a row for it?

Edit: What [MENTION=52492]TheRustyOne[/MENTION] said.

 

[Thaumaturge]

The dragon has his reasons. He's not really interested in a fight. The interesting bit is the ranger almost defeated the encounter. The dragon leaves once he takes, as I recall, 24 points of damage or a single critical hit. 22 in one shot is probably enough to send him away. He doesn't know how powerful the adventurers are, and, again, he doesn't want to fight.

But, yes, there are a number of encounters in the adventure that appear quite dangerous for PCs of the recommended level.

EDIT: Double Way of Shadow'd.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Daern]

Exactly. Like I said, it was late and I kinda blew by just saying roll initiative, it was just sorta killer DM instinct for when a monster takes a really large hit from one hero.
As for being in a row, they totally were, lined up on the battlements of the keep.
Long and short of it is that Dragons in 5e are gnarly. My group learned that lesson on both sides of the screen!

 

[ExploderWizard]

Ok, I have to chime in here. I dont think TPK's are actually good in almost any case. Why do I say this? Because I play to have a story. A story doesnt make much sense or hold much appeal if the Protagonists are all wiped out.

I guess I have to wonder how much of a story Star Wars (Episode IV) would have been if instead of outrunning the Star Destroyer, Han, Chewie, Obi Wan, Luke, r2D2, and C3P0 would have been blown away by a group of Tie Fighters. What happens then? Some other group with a Jedi, and some droids, and smugglers take up the quest? How many cycles of protagonists can you kill and still keep people engaged?

I get that some people like that DM vs PCs angle. Or like to play the game where you have to be uber cautious about everything you do, the rogue must search every 10' before anyone walks on it otherwise a trap might TPK the party.
I personally just dont get enjoyment out of those styles of games. If a TPK is possible, for me it better be story related and the PCs better have a clear idea that no one might make it out alive. Its one thing when you finally get to the BBEG and you know it is powerful and will have to use every advantage possible....But 12d10 vs low level characters? Come on.

~Desh

Why do you need game mechanics/ a resolution system to tell a story with a known outcome? I can get a group of people together and tell them how they all kicked butt, defeated the BBEG and went on to rule the galaxy without cracking a rulebook. I enjoy reading stories but I play these games because they are not stories, or rather, they are only stories once play has ended and the events of the game become the recorded history of fantasy land.

Sometimes the story of epic failure can be just as entertaining and memorable as those of victory. The chance that the story could go either way is what keeps the game engaging for me.