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D&D 5E Egregious TPK retcon in Hoard of the Dragon Queen

Daern

Explorer
So I got together with a couple buddies for a last minute late night run through Hoard of the Dragon Queen. I'd barely looked at the adventure and it was getting late and all of that is to excuse the fact that rather than

SPOILERS..........................







Rather than just have the Dragon strafe everyone but them, I had the dragon respond to the Ranger putting a 22hp hit on him (3rd level, w Colossus hunter and Hunter's Mark) by using his breath weapon. 12d10. None stood a chance. I had to say, "Oh. Well. That didn't happen actually."
It's tough when you yell, "Everybody make a saving throw" then look at the statblock.
 

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[Spoilers for Starter Set]

A couple of weeks back, my group for the Starter Set was down two players (the wizard and the rogue). The remaining players had definitely found the last encounter of the Redcloak hideout (three Bugbears) to be really tough without any crowd control, but were happily pottering around near Conyberry. Then they went to Wyvern's Tor and saw seven Orcs and an Ogre. They did a really good job of working together: the Halfling Fighter used Dodge to tank the Orc's attacks, while the Fighter Archer and the Cleric cut down the numbers from afar. But then the players' dice just wouldn't kill the last Orc, who proceeded to roll a string of criticals and killed all three PCs. Whoops.

We all sort of stood around and looked at each other, and then agreed that we'd just revert to the start of the combat once we arranged a game where the wizard and rogue players could attend.

So I think that saying, "Oh, actually that doesn't happen..." isn't a terrible thing to do, since TPKs are not much fun for anyone, and they do kind of mess up the campaign something fierce.
 

MortalPlague

Adventurer
TPKs are not everyone's cup of tea.

I don't mind them myself; I always feel like there ought to be a chance that things go horribly awry when out adventuring. But I don't gun for them either.

But yeah, it's not something all groups will appreciate, especially when it's a stacked encounter thrown together more or less by accident...
 

delericho

Legend
I was actually glad to see some of the really tough encounters in "Lost Mine of Phandelver" - that's something WotC had generally stayed away from ever since the backlash to the Roper encounter in "Forge of Fury". Since I always felt that was a mistake, I was glad to see it reversed.
 

A

amerigoV

Guest
I was actually glad to see some of the really tough encounters in "Lost Mine of Phandelver" - that's something WotC had generally stayed away from ever since the backlash to the Roper encounter in "Forge of Fury". Since I always felt that was a mistake, I was glad to see it reversed.

Agreed. Players are such crybabies these days. The group I played in escaped the initial encounter against the Roper with some cleverness on my part if I say so myself (offered the Roper something to eat - off to the side summoned something, then ran like hell before the summoned thing "popped" out of existence when the Roper bit into it - heh). We then researched Ropers, planned, and slaughtered the Roper. Even low level parties can beat very tough stuff so long as they can plan for it.
 

TPKs early in the game can serve as valuable lessons to players and help them improve their game. Of course if the reset button is pressed every time the players bite off more than they can chew the only lesson learned is that suicidal frontal assaults will always work so why bother thinking of anything else.
 

SigmaOne

First Post
LMoP spoiler

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I ran the Cragmaw hideout last night.

They (the cleric, mage, and noble fighter; along with the rogue as NPC) slept two of the wolves and killed a third, before sending the cleric up the chimney having a Light spell on her holy symbol. The bugbear leader Klarg, his goblins, and the wolf immediately noticed her, and after a seconds thought; she popped back down. (Smart move.) The wolves, which they didn't want to kill unless necessary were starting to wake up. The goblins climbed down after her, but the party slew the wolves and got back to the entrance before the goblins got down the chimney. The party decided to wait around the corner from the cave entrance and ambush the goblins. But the goblins, being to cowardly to chase after the party themselves without Klarg, wouldn't go out. A minute or two goes by, with the PCs waiting, and they hear the sound of yelling from within the cave, another minute goes by, and the noble takes a peak into the cave to see that Klarg has gathered all the goblins and the entire cave is charging out at these first level characters. Klarg (who can drop any PC with one hit), a wolf, and (I think) eleven goblins. Instead of running immediately, the warrior throws a javelin at Klarg and misses. Fortunately, there's a bit of a pinch at the cave entrance, with the warrior and cleric up front taking the attacks, and the goblins not wanting to run by them to incur opportunity attacks, but I rule Klarg can bump them aside to get to the warrior. The NPC rogue ran off immediately after one pot shot. But the PCs tried to stand their ground. I rolled lousily, and no PCs died, even though they stood for another round and still hadn't killed a single goblin themselves. They took a few arrows, realized they couldn't win, and ran. I had Klarg and the wolf chase them, with a couple volleys of arrows from the goblins, too lazy and cowardly to run much farther than the cave entrance. The wizard, being already a decent distance from the melee, managed to get off a couple rays of frost, one on Klarg and one on the wolf, which after a couple rounds gave the PCs a bit of distance. (If she had saved her sleep spell and used it on the goblins, this battle might have even been winnable! Not likely though.) I decided Klarg would give up the chase after a couple minutes, but the wolf wouldn't give up. They heard the thundering feet of the bugbear slow and eventually stop, and so they stopped to rest. At this point, no PC has more than 2 hp. But then they turn to realize the wolf is right behind them. Fortunately the cleric had held onto her guiding bolt spell, and she gets initiative and takes out the wolf.

I spent most of that encounter thinking this would be a TPK. I had a string of really low rolls for the goblin arrows, and if any of them had hit, that would have been the end of that character. If I'd had the goblins give more chase and shoot arrows, it's likely one of them would have died.

I've been playing with these players for a year, and they haven't had a character die... and I wonder if it's because I've been soft. I just started after a 20 year hiatus, and the players are my fiancé and two friends, and I think I went easy on them during the playtest campaign because those were their first characters, and they were quite attached to them. At least now they have the picture that with the official rules, the monsters are no pushovers and their characters really will be placed in deadly positions. And they know the monsters won't sit there and wait to be picked off one by one.
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TPKs early in the game can serve as valuable lessons to players and help them improve their game. Of course if the reset button is pressed every time the players bite off more than they can chew the only lesson learned is that suicidal frontal assaults will always work so why bother thinking of anything else.

They only serve as a "valuable lesson" if they make sense and flow from a chain of poor decisions. A single poor decision or bad rolls leading to a TPK? Tends to seem like bad game/adventure design or DMing (and usually is, I would say as a DM).

The other claim re: "frontal assaults" is just fanciful nonsense, imo/ime.

I don't know the story of this adventure, but I have to ask... why these 3rd level PCs decided to attack a Dragon?

Friendly, otherwise-honest NPCs have directly told them to IIRC.
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
I don't know the story of this adventure, but I have to ask... why these 3rd level PCs decided to attack a Dragon?

This is where I come down on this: if a dragon is strafing the town and the PCs can duck and run without danger, but one of them decides to attack, all bets are off. Don't poke the dragon.
 

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