D&D 5E I think we can safely say that 5E is a success, but will it lead to a new Golden Era?

Raith5

Adventurer
I just read that MTV is creating a Shannara series in the vein of Game of Thrones. How about Showtime or some other big network, or perhaps Netflix, getting behind Dungeons & Dragons as an ongoing series? I think either a series or movie(s) would work well, as long as they were well done and not brimming with gamer-speak and in-jokes.

One problem as I see is a tension with what D&D is to its fans and the cinematic aspirations that you and others in this thread champion. 4e tried a game totally focused on encounters/scenes with all sorts of heroic stuff (action points), rangers not having to cast spells to be rangery, fighters doing all sorts of superhuman things, characters dusting themselves off in the middle of fights without magical healing etc - things we saw in the LOTR series and this high fantasy vision struggled with die hard D&D fans.

I also think that even early D&D is conversely too high fantasy for something like Game of thrones.

The early stylings of D&D bite hard as evidenced by their re-emergence in 5e: I think the divide between what D&D as a game is and what we want it to be in public image sense is pretty big.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I would agree with you if the sales of the PHBs during their respective launch periods was the defining factor in the overall success of the edition. But it is not, imo. It is one factor among many, and probably not even the most important one. f it was it would be like saying a product is successful if the initial run sold out, even if people don't like it after six months.
Sure, but then I think it is a bit premature to judge 5e, given that the PHB has barely launched.

I'm not predicting that it will meet the same fate as 4e. Nor that it won't. I think it's a bit early to tell.

You seem to be equating "success" with finances alone. This may be fine with movies, but with RPGs it isn't so simple.

<snip>

If you're WotC you want to not only sell as many PHBs as possible in the initial launch, but both continue to sell PHBs
From WotC's point of view, success absolutely is about finances - it's a corporation trying to generate return on its investment. You don't really seem to be disagreeing with that, either; you're just distinguishing short term from long term financial success.

Word-of-mouth is huge in the Information Age.
To an extent. But I don't think the views of ENworlders are very significant on who goes to see the LotR or The Hobbit. If those views are determinative for the fate of an edition of D&D, I think that itself is somewhat telling for the overall size and character of the market.

One problem as I see is a tension with what D&D is to its fans and the cinematic aspirations that you and others in this thread champion. 4e tried a game totally focused on encounters/scenes with all sorts of heroic stuff (action points), rangers not having to cast spells to be rangery, fighters doing all sorts of superhuman things, characters dusting themselves off in the middle of fights without magical healing etc - things we saw in the LOTR series and this high fantasy vision struggled with die hard D&D fans.

<snip>

The early stylings of D&D bite hard as evidenced by their re-emergence in 5e: I think the divide between what D&D as a game is and what we want it to be in public image sense is pretty big.
Very good post.

From WotC's point of view, I think they therefore need to escape those fans and their connection to the early stylings. Much as the LotR and Marvel movies are largely independent of the diehard fans' conceptions of what LotR or The Avengers should be.

This is why I express the view that, insofar as WotC hasn't made that escape, and views at ENworld can count as a good predictor, even determiner, of success, then it hasn't really reached its goals.

D&D is too linked to pastiche and puns.
There is truth to this, but to a significant extent it's true of Marvel Comics too. But they were able to break out. I assume that that is the sort of thing WotC is hoping for. Perhaps they'll leave in a passing reference to "yellow spandex".
 

Steely Dan

Banned
Banned
For example, that John Carter movie turned out to be a flop --- they overestimated how many people had any idea what those books were.


It was also simply a horrendous B-movie.

I agree that more cross-media exposure would do wonders, I remember Marvel comic-books having D&D ads back in the day.

A D&D film is always an interesting concept, so many ways to go, but I think establishing beholders, rust monsters, carrion crawlers, liches, mind flayers, owlbears, pit fiends, etc, is key.
 
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Kai Lord

Hero
I agree that D&D needs a "non-geek" boost but I think its too soon to jump to another movie. They've all just sucked so bad. I think we need a great cartoon to make it "cool" again. Something like the Star Wars Clone Wars or Nickelodeon Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles shows. I remember people being really burned on the SW prequels and a string of bad TMNT productions but those two animated series really restored brand integrity and now (not necessarily as a direct result) we've got mainstream SW and Ninja Turtles movies out or coming out again.

That's what I think WOTC should do. Make a fantasy version of the Star Wars cartoon with a cool adventuring party that can slowly but surely remind everyone on a weekly basis that D&D really can be awesome again. Once the "palette is clear" then they can start thinking movie again.
 


GrumpyGamer

First Post
I think we need to wait for the DMG before we judge the success of 5e... with that said, it has roped a bunch of my casual gaming friends back to the table. I take this as a good sign.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
A creative and community success, that is. I know, it is early, but the feedback on the Starter Set, Basic Rules, and Player's Handbook has been overwhelmingly positive, so much so that the negative views really stand out. We still need to see more reviews and give the community a couple months with the Player's Handbook, but so far I think 5E is quite a success with the fan base, and I just can't imagine anything like the debacle that we had with 4E.
The debacles surrounding 4e were mostly business & PR issues (and the unrelenting malice of the edition war, of course). Even so, with all the marketing screwups, it showed this same level of success this early in the process, as has happened with every new rev-roll.

WotC PR is more measured, this time around, and, though we haven't had an insider spill the beans, as yet, there's no reason to think they've over-promised to Hasbro this time.

Likewise, with every new rev-roll, WotC tries to do /something/ to boost non-core sales. With 3e it had some success with the OGL keeping things rolling With 4e, it tried to arbitrarily declare everything core. Now, with 5e, it seems they may just decline to publish a great deal beyond the core, at all, thus avoiding the spectre of 'falling sales' and the imputed 'declining popularity.'

Here's the "but" from the thread title (which is really more of a "What if"). What if it is a roaring success with the existing fan-base but isn't a massive financial one? In other words, what if the Mearls Plan doesn't succeed and the brand doesn't blow up with a massive new generation of players storming the gates to roll their first d20? What if none or few of the legendary "20 million" D&D boomers from the 80s doesn't come back?
Well, it's never happened before. but, unless someone pitched unrealistic revenue goals to Hasbro again, not winning the revenue lottery shouldn't kill D&D, this time.

IMHO, the Mearls Plan /is/ just to consolidate a majority of the fan-base. That won't result in spectacular revenue, but it doesn't need to. If he can avoid another edition war, and an appearance of failure, maybe he can take another shot at revitalizing the franchise outside the hard-core niche. But, to do that, he has to appease that niche.

In other words, business as usual and what one would have expected with 5E, but without the fulfillment of the promised vision of a new golden era of a diversified D&D brand. D&D would remain what it has been since the end of the 80s boom, a niche hobby with moderate ups and downs in creativity and financial success.
That'd be pretty nearly the worst-case scenario. I doubt it's even theoretically possible for 5e to be /so bad/ that it couldn't achieve that.

That said, I would still be curious what a new, golden era of D&D would be like.
The old one happened due to controversies that made D&D seem dangerous and much darker and sexier than it really was. Rumors of 'real magic,' satanism, mind-control, suicide, etc - the same kinds of silliness that made heavy metal popular around the same time, really. Hey kids, your parents will freak if you play D&D = instant fad.



Imagine if there could be D&D movies with similar production and creative values as the Marvel universe or Star Wars or Star Trek movies.
I suppose it's not inconceivable that D&D could go mainstream the way Marvel has - but, y'know, Stan Lee spent a lifetime making that happen, with many failures and false starts in the movie biz. Think about how much and for how long Marvel heroes were on TV, for instance. Any one of them got more exposure on Saturday morning TV than D&D did (just the one cartoon).


A more likely point of entry would be video games. D&D has essentially spawned a whole genre or CRPGs and MMOs without any of it's own forrays into that market ever really taking off. If WotC/Hasbro would finally license D&D to the right developer at the right time, it could get another fad rolling. The TTRPG would likely be forgotten in the process, but it'd give the IP a shot.
 
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SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
I'd say it's way too early to call 5E a success yet, since we haven't even seen the MM and DMG yet... the core hasn't even fully launched yet. For folks like me, the DMG is going to be the critical book: can it bring in modules that make the game something I want to play? Still hoping yes.

Beyond that, what will determine the success of the new edition is what they produce next.

Core books sell. 4E's core books sold more than any other edition at launch even with the edition war. It's what happens next that will tell the tale of 5E. I would say that specifically it's what the next group of writers choose to do with 5E that will be telling: WotC has a tradition of letting many of the people involved with the core rules design go soon afterwards, so the question is: will those next group of writers follow the original designer's vision?

Will WotC break with tradition and largely keep the core designers with them?

It will be interesting to see.
 

Mercurius

Legend
The debacles surrounding 4e were mostly business & PR issues (and the unrelenting malice of the edition war, of course). WotC PR is more measured, this time around, and, though we haven't had an insider spill the beans, as yet, there's no reason to think they've over-promised to Hasbro this time. So 5e should have an easy time of it.

Even so, with all the marketing screwups, 4e showed this same level of success this early in the process. as has happened with every new rev-roll. Likewise, with every new rev-roll, WotC tries to do /something/ to boost non-core sales. With 3e it had some success with the OGL keeping things rolling With 4e, it tried to arbitrarily declare everything core. Now, with 5e, it seems they may just decline to publish a great deal beyond the core, at all. Taking the easy win and just not playing after.

As I said up-thread, I'm not just talking about initial (or even only long-term) financial success, but creative and community success which should but doesn't always translate into financial success. As far as I can tell, 5E is showing signs of being a stronger success in the community than 4E was at the same point. A part of this, even the lion's share, is the PR and marketing screw-ups you mention, but I think it is also aspects of the game itself - that it is more palatable to a wider range of D&D players, especially the long-time people that were turned off by the "Warcrafty" qualities of 4E.

The reason I put so much emphasis on this "in-community" success is that even if D&D isn't the raging financial success WotC hopes it will be, a strong core community will keep the game alive and even thriving, if on a smaller scale. In other words, if the "core few hundred thousand" are happy, the game will be fine.

The old one happened due to controversies that made D&D seem dangerous and much darker and sexier than it really was. Rumors of 'real magic,' satanism, mind-control, suicide, etc - the same kinds of silliness that made heavy metal popular around the same time, really. Hey kids, your parents will freak if you play D&D = instant fad.

Actually, I think you have it backwards. When I talk about the "Golden Age" of D&D I'm talking late 70s to mid-80s, beginning with the publication of AD&D starting in 1977 to ~1985, when Gygax was kicked out and the satanism and "MADD" stuff was peaking. In other words, all that stuff you mention ended up ending the Golden Age, not causing it. Perhaps at first it brought D&D more attention, but it had more of a negative effect than positive.

Anyhow, couple the controversies with the rise of the real Satan, the video game :p, and the boom of the early 80s was doomed to be just a moment in time.

But I think the main reason that boom occurred was simply the newness and novelty of it. It was a fad, and it is very, very unlikely that we'll ever see the numbers rise to the legendary 20 million again. I think the best-case scenario is that we see a bump up to the 5-10 million range, which is similar to the hey-day of 3.X - perhaps a bit more if WotC can stretch the brand into movies and video games.

I suppose it's not inconceivable that D&D could go mainstream the way Marvel has - but, y'know, Stan Lee spent a lifetime making that happen, with many failures and false starts in the movie biz. Think about how much and for how long Marvel heroes were on TV, for instance. Any one of them got more exposure on Saturday morning TV than D&D did (just the one cartoon).

Yet I think the recent popularity of Marvel was almost entirely brought on by the quality and success of the movies. The first X-Men movie showed that you could actually make a great comic book movie (other than Batman, the Keaton ones being pretty good, as well as the first couple campy-by-fun Superman movies). Spiderman and X-Men 2 took it up a notch further, and then the whole thing exploded with Iron Man(despite a brief hiccup with the Fantastic Four movies).

So I don't think it is rocket science or even requires some mastermind strategy. What it does require are good film-makers and screenwriters to take it on and make good movies. What a D&D movie would require is some nerdy but good film-maker like JJ Abramsto lead the project, not people like Ed Greenwood, RA Salvatore or Tracy Hickman.Those guys can consult, but let the movie people make the movies (George R.R. Martin is a rare instance of someone who knows both worlds, film-making and novel writing).

A more likely point of entry would be video games. D&D has essentially spawned a whole genre or CRPGs and MMOs without any of it's own forrays into that market ever really taking off. If WotC/Hasbro would finally license D&D to the right developer at the right time, it could get another fad rolling. The TTRPG would likely be forgotten in the process, but it'd give the IP a shot.

Given that I have absolutely no interest in video games, and even actively dislike them, that sounds like my worst nightmare! But it does seem like a missed opportunity that WotC hasn't really been able to capitalize on the brand in the video game market. But again, video games and tabletop RPGs compete with each other if only for "hobby time."

I'd say it's way too early to call 5E a success yet, since we haven't even seen the MM and DMG yet... the core hasn't even fully launched yet. For folks like me, the DMG is going to be the critical book: can it bring in modules that make the game something I want to play? Still hoping yes.

This is interesting because, in a way, the DMG is completely optional for 5E, but it also very crucial, especially for the long-time fans. I know that of all the core three it is the book I'm most looking forward to but, presumably, the least necessary to actually play the game.

Beyond that, what will determine the success of the new edition is what they produce next.

Core books sell. 4E's core books sold more than any other edition at launch even with the edition war. It's what happens next that will tell the tale of 5E. I would say that specifically it's what the next group of writers choose to do with 5E that will be telling: WotC has a tradition of letting many of the people involved with the core rules design go soon afterwards, so the question is: will those next group of writers follow the original designer's vision?

Will WotC break with tradition and largely keep the core designers with them?

It will be interesting to see.


Yet, all interesting questions. Now I know this may ruffle some feathers, but one thing I'd like to see WotC do is somehow create a context in which producing new core rulebooks every 3-4 years is OK and accepted and even expected. Let the game be a living game. As much as it ruffled feathers in 2003, people overall embraced 3.5. I don't see why WotC couldn't institutionalize a revision every few years, without it completely remaking the game. So we have 5E in 2014, why not "5.2" in 2018, "5.4" in 2021, and "5.8" in 2025 before "6E: The Singularity Edition" arrives in 2030?

I jest, but the point is I think WotC could capitalize on revised versions of the core rulebooks without making all previous books incompatible.

Aside from core rulebooks, obviously the old "splat attack" approach doesn't really work on account of diminishing returns. But Paizo seems to have found a way around that by focusing on adventures, with a steady stream of setting books and a few high quality hardcover splats. But I think part of their success is that they limit the hardcovers to, hat, one per season? This makes them seem less like filler and more like quality products (although it sounds like people are already complaining of bloat).

But yeah, it should be interesting to see what WotC does after the initial roll-out.
 

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