D&D 5E 5th Edition -- Help Me Break the Game!

[Cybit]

Regardless, I said 28 AC is overkill and suggested to go with another magic item in that "slot," not to take it.



That depends on how you play your Wizard. Mine is going to spell snipe at range and isn't going to be in many situations where I would have to use Shield every turn to avoid being hit. Nor would I be in a position to utilize AoOs very much since that requires being right next to the fighting.

The 25 AC Wizard means you are going to have to sink more (or different kinds of) monster resources into damaging him than otherwise be necessary. It is an easy-to-obtain defensive measure meant address a normal Wizard weakness and to frustrate the enemy, not end encounters.

I guess at L18 I'm not as concerned about a 25 AC character in terms of monsters & other classes. A Monk can hit 23 and spend a single Ki point to grant disadvantage with a single magic item (20 WIS & 20 DEX is definitely reachable, with 4 +1 stat boosts by L16 and a single magic item); A eldritch knight can do something similar just based on the class. 25 might be high, but if the dragon is any indication, there are a lot of non-AC attacks that would threaten someone.

Also, I would be careful about assumptions on how magic items are going to work, especially with regards to "slots".

 

[omniknight]

I'm not really sure where to start with 5e. Stuff like maxing out your AC doesn't really make you broken in my eyes unless that means something. You expend all these resources to be an invincible lump on the battlefield. So what? The real threat is going to be those spells that resolve encounters outright, particularly those that don't even require a die roll to do so.

What "resources" am I spending? In fact, as a Wizard I save spell slots by going plate armor+shield since I don't have to otherwise cast AC boosters like Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, Blur, or even Shield (usually). So overall this makes me a more effective spellcaster, not less of one.

...Not to mention with Cleric 1 the Wizard gets scalable healing spells and a few extra Cantrips, and a couple other goodies. Since Wizard gets crap for proficiencies anyway, multiclassing to it and gaining none of its proficiencies isn't a loss. The biggest negatives are a one level delay on Wizard features and (to a lesser extent) loss of its lackluster capstone. Well worth it, IMO.

 

[omniknight]

I guess at L18 I'm not as concerned about a 25 AC character in terms of monsters & other classes. A Monk can hit 23 and spend a single Ki point to grant disadvantage with a single magic item (20 WIS & 20 DEX is definitely reachable, with 4 +1 stat boosts by L16 and a single magic item); A eldritch knight can do something similar just based on the class. 25 might be high, but if the dragon is any indication, there are a lot of non-AC attacks that would threaten someone.

You seem to be missing the point. I am not suggesting that with 20-25 AC the Wizard is untouchable by attacks (though at lower-mid levels he usually is outside of a critical). But at mid-high level against major monsters it is not close to a guarantee he's hit by any attack that comes his way like it normally would be. And certainly on average it is going to take a more concerted effort on the DM's part to damage him.

BTW, do you realize with this 23 AC is attainable at level 2? And 25 AC is attainable as soon as you get access to plate armor which I assume is level ~3-4? I am not only talking about the effectiveness of this concept at high level.

Also, I would be careful about assumptions on how magic items are going to work, especially with regards to "slots".

I don't have any newer materials beyond the Basic PDF, so I just took what someone said about BoD at face value. Who cares.

 

[Cybit]

What "resources" am I spending? In fact, as a Wizard I save spell slots by going plate armor+shield since I don't have to otherwise cast AC boosters like Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, Blur, or even Shield (usually). So overall this makes me a more effective spellcaster, not less of one.

Note; Multiclassing is opt-in for a DM, so I like the idea that DMs are warned about multi-classing and what it can do. Ditto for Feats.

Couple of things

1) You can't be wielding a weapon, as you need a hand free to cast spells and you already have a hand using a shield.

2) Going to have interesting stats; as you will need a high Con, decent wisdom (13), and a high Int. A low dex is super, super dangerous for a wizard. Low Str / Dex / Cha could be pretty dangerous going forward. Seeing as the highest starting stat you can go with is 15, let's say you play a Hill Dwarf, go 15 Con (9), 15 Int (9), 12 Wis (4), 13 Dex (5), 8 Str, 8 Cha. Your Final stats are 17 Con, 15 Int, 13 Dex, 13 Wis, 8 Str, 8 Cha. You have four feats (if allowed). Assuming you spend at least the level 4 feat on +1 to Con and +1 to Int, giving you 18 & 16 respectively, you will be hurting to take Tough until maybe level 16, as you will want that Int maxed sooner rather than later. Gonna be hard getting up to 18 in one piece.

3) If the dragons and vampires are any indication, there are a lot of non AC threats involved naturally.

4) I'm not sure the intention is for someone to be able to dip into Cleric and grab heavy armor proficiency with the Life Domain. Might be worth asking [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] if that is how it is intended to be interpreted?

 

[Gundark]

There was talk over on rpg.net how a Fighter withe the defense Fighting style, in full plate and shield with a level of Cleric and shield of faith works out to AC 23.

Granted Shield of Faith is a concentration spell and there is a chance for it to end by taking damage so maybe not a broken as one might think

 

[omniknight]

"Pfft" indeed. Play the game, building the character up from level 1; you'll see how broken in fact it is. I stand by Not at All -- It's a fragile build.

I have, and it is quite effective, actually. You think having the following:

• 23 AC at level 2
• 25 AC at level 3 or 4
• WIS ST proficiency
• CON ST proficiency
• HP equivalent to an 18 CON Barbarian
• No spell slots devoted to AC boosters
• Scalable Cure Wounds & Healing Word + other Cleric Cantrips/L1 spells

and otherwise being just as effective as a straight Wizard, is "fragile"? Hokay.

Feel free to actually provide logical evidence rather than just making statements and naively expecting they should be taken as facts.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Hokey.

Fixed that for you?

 

[omniknight]

1) You can't be wielding a weapon, as you need a hand free to cast spells and you already have a hand using a shield.

Ayep, that's the plan. Fortunately Cantrips are an acceptable alternative to standard weapon attacks. Not as much standard attack damage as other classes do, sure, but I am not looking to excel everywhere.

2) Going to have interesting stats; as you will need a high Con, decent wisdom (13), and a high Int. A low dex is super, super dangerous for a wizard. Low Str / Dex / Cha could be pretty dangerous going forward. Seeing as the highest starting stat you can go with is 15, let's say you play a Hill Dwarf, go 15 Con (9), 15 Int (9), 12 Wis (4), 13 Dex (5), 8 Str, 8 Cha. Your Final stats are 17 Con, 15 Int, 13 Dex, 13 Wis, 8 Str, 8 Cha. You have four feats (if allowed). Assuming you spend at least the level 4 feat on +1 to Con and +1 to Int, giving you 18 & 16 respectively, you will be hurting to take Tough until maybe level 16, as you will want that Int maxed sooner rather than later. Gonna be hard getting up to 18 in one piece.

Actually, my current plan for level one stat allocation with a Hill Dwarf is:

8 STR / 12 DEX / 17 CON / 15 INT / 14 WIS / 8 CHA (maybe 10 STR / 10 DEX instead)

I don't see how it would be any easier to make it to level 18 as a straight Wizard who has lower AC, lower HP, no healing spells, and has to spend spell slots on AC boosters. Straight Wizards also dump STR and CHA too, nothing special there. Resilient is a Feat tax for pretty much everyone to shore up one of the "main" STs (DEX/CON/WIS), so nothing different there either. Tough might end up being overkill so it could be delayed or even tossed in favor of a faster 20 INT.

The one thing straight Wizards will have over my concept is a higher DEX, but they still won't be proficient with it and IMO higher HP mitigates that weak spot somewhat.

3) If the dragons and vampires are any indication, there are a lot of non AC threats involved naturally.

Yep...so? Again, I am not looking to be untouchable! Cleric 1 is just a very effective and benefit-rich way to address a normal Wizard weakness (low AC) while still getting full spell slot progression and other goodies, while not losing very much compared to a straight Wizard.

4) I'm not sure the intention is for someone to be able to dip into Cleric and grab heavy armor proficiency with the Life Domain. Might be worth asking @mearls if that is how it is intended to be interpreted?

I'm taking Cleric at level 1, not multiclassing to it. I would be multiclassing to Wizard at character level 2, but since their normal proficiencies are bad anyway nothing worthwhile is lost.

 

[Cybit]

I have, and it is quite effective, actually. You think having the following:

• 23 AC at level 2
• 25 AC at level 3 or 4
• WIS ST proficiency
• CON ST proficiency
• HP equivalent to an 18 CON Barbarian
• No spell slots devoted to AC boosters
• Scalable Cure Wounds & Healing Word + other Cleric Cantrips/L1 spells

and otherwise being just as effective as a straight Wizard, is "fragile"? Hokay.

Feel free to actually provide logical evidence rather than just making statements and naively expecting they should be taken as facts.

How is the AC at level 2 at 23 / 25 at level 3 or 4 lasting more than one turn w/o concentration? Also, not sure how you are getting con ST proficiency?

The biggest weakness is that your INT is going to be really low; your spells will be very easy to save against. (Especially since you are using your level 4 feat on +1/+1, and level 8 on Tough). 15 INT from level 1-3 will be tough to contribute with, as will 16 INT until level 12. You will be hard to bring down, but not as sure as to your effectiveness on spellcasting for a while.

Honestly, I'm staring at Create Thrall (Warlock) and giggling. Anyone notice there isn't a saving throw for it?

 

[omniknight]

Fixed that for you?

Why are you clogging up this discussion thread with spam? You obviously don't have anything constructive to add.