D&D 5E I think we can safely say that 5E is a success, but will it lead to a new Golden Era?

You ARE right that they "tried" to appeal to a larger group.
Which is 'casting a wide net.'

Is this where I'm supposed to ask you why you hate change so much?
If you think you can do so without irony.

I'm actually pretty change-adverse. If something is significantly different, it needs to be even more-significantly /better/ to win me over.

3e cleared that bar. 4e cleared it spectacularly. 5e doesn't need to - it's not different enough from AD&D and 3e to warrant it. They've had that aspect of it right since the first playtest packet. My only reservation was that it might be significantly /worse/ than 3e, which, so far, it hasn't shown itself to be.
 
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I don't know, Drizzt's big thing is being a bad ass sword fighter. That completely works in a Star Wars movie (thinking Darth Maul here), so there's not reason it can't work in a straight up fantasy movie.

It could work, but how marketable is Drizzt as a movie property? What you have is a Drow (No one knows what that is) adventuring in Forgotten Realms (No one knows what that is) whose "Thing" is that he is the opposite of the Drow Culture (No one knows what that is). That makes it a very hard character to sell to audiences as it requires a fairly substantial amount of knowledge of backstory for him to become an interesting character. If you don't know what Drow are and don't know what Forgotten Realms is, a lot of Drizzt's draw is immediately lost.

So you could definitely sell it to a predominantly male demographic, it would be extremely hard for it to break out and reach blockbuster status. It requires far too much backstory knowledge for it to draw heavy crowds as it would be virtually impossible to communicate in a 2 minute trailer why people should care about Drizzt and why his story is interesting.

It's also a dangerous property because not only would it play strongly male, but then it would also have a guaranteed audience of only the subset of D&D fans who like Forgotten Realms. So if it failed to break out of its demographic it would have a very limited fanbase that would need to carry it.
 

It could work, but how marketable is Drizzt as a movie property? What you have is a Drow (No one knows what that is) adventuring in Forgotten Realms (No one knows what that is) whose "Thing" is that he is the opposite of the Drow Culture (No one knows what that is). That makes it a very hard character to sell to audiences as it requires a fairly substantial amount of knowledge of backstory for him to become an interesting character. If you don't know what Drow are and don't know what Forgotten Realms is, a lot of Drizzt's draw is immediately lost.

So you could definitely sell it to a predominantly male demographic, it would be extremely hard for it to break out and reach blockbuster status. It requires far too much backstory knowledge for it to draw heavy crowds as it would be virtually impossible to communicate in a 2 minute trailer why people should care about Drizzt and why his story is interesting.

It's also a dangerous property because not only would it play strongly male, but then it would also have a guaranteed audience of only the subset of D&D fans who like Forgotten Realms. So if it failed to break out of its demographic it would have a very limited fanbase that would need to carry it.

And let's not forget that you don't reach blockbuster status without a lot of women in the seats. And that typically means relationships need to play a big part in the movie. It was young women who made Spider-Man a blockbuster.
 

And let's not forget that you don't reach blockbuster status without a lot of women in the seats. And that typically means relationships need to play a big part in the movie. It was young women who made Spider-Man a blockbuster.

Oh, we know the result of Team Wulfgar and Team Drizzt with Cattie-Brie. That right there makes for some drama! :erm:
 

You really have to see new players trying 4e to believe how well it worked for them, and for casual play. It was deceptive, because it changed so much that, to an oldtimer, it felt almost impenetrable, but to new players, it was an open book - clear and consistent.

My experience was quite different than yours. I've introduced many people to D&D over the decades, and even the most casual player was able to wrap her head around playing a fighter within minutes. With AD&D or B/X D&D, I could tell a player to roll some dice, write down these numbers, and the rest of us will explain the rules as we go along. By the end of the first combat, pretty much every player had the basics down: roll d20+2 to hit, roll d8+2 for damage, AC means how hard it is to hit me, when I hit 0 HP I'm dead/unconscious, and I can move X squares on the grid on my turn. That covers most of the knowledge needed to play a fighter for a long time, other than saving throws, which you generally only need to know about when something happens to you.

Introducing 3e to new players worked out pretty much the same (but pick feats like Weapon Focus for the player), plus critical hits and provoking AoOs. AoOs often took a long time for players to understand.

In both of the above situations, the player can generally make in-character decisions each turn in combat. Who do I want to attack? Where do I need to move in order to attack? Am I hurt enough to retreat?

Even the simplest character in 4e (human slayer) requires the player to become familiar with a lot more game concepts. In addition to the concepts mentioned above, this player will quickly need to understand:
- temporary hit points
- healing surges
- the bloodied condition
- at-will vs encounter powers
- 2 stances and 2 encounter powers (Power Strike and Second Wind)
- action points
- forced movement (push vs pull vs slide)
- tracking round-by-round +/- X modifiers to hit/damage/AC/etc
- combat advantage

During play, the player needs to now track three separate measures of a character's durability (every new player I've introduced 4e to has asked me why this is necessary). The simpler combat stances give static bonuses to hit or damage, so the player needs to note the modified attack and damage values for each weapon in each stance.

The focus on teamwork in 4e means that other party members are using powers that let him spend a healing surge, grant him temporary hit points, grant him combat advantage, or grant him a +/- 1/2 to hit/damage/AC "until the end of his next turn."

The player of a fighter in AD&D, B/X D&D, or 3e can remain mostly concerned with his own character's abilities and the subset of rules that are involved.

The player of a fighter in 4e has to interact with a larger subset of rules just to cover his own character's abilities. On top of that, monsters will frequently impose forced movement, short-term conditions, and short-term penalties to hit/damage/AC. Being a front-line combatant, his character is one of the optimal targets for the leaders' various fiddly "until the end of your next turn" buffs and tactical adjustments.

Everyone else's actions more or less impose more complexity on that player's gaming experience, through constantly shifting battlefield positions, short-term conditions, and round-by-round mathematical adjustments.

That was my experience with 4e and new players. Now, my sample size is small, and I've gamed with a lot more new players in pre-4e than in 4e, so I cannot claim to be representative. When I read the 4e rules, I was really excited and everything was very clear and consistent. But in play, every new player in my groups complained about these same issues (as did some of the experienced but lapsed players). They all expressed the sentiment that, as soon as combat started, they felt like they were just interacting with rules instead of playing characters and interacting with the world.

I haven't played 5e yet, beyond a couple of sessions using the first playtest packet, but it definitely seems much closer to the first experience than the second.

And, while it was, like 3e, hard to master, the rewards for system mastery were intentionally minimized, so you didn't have these balance issues with new players entering established groups or power-players bombing casual play.

I agree with that. The issue that I found wasn't a balance issue but a conflict of expectations and preferences. The new/casual players didn't want to deal with a lot of complexity and too many decisions to make, so they tended to play strikers. The experienced players loved the tactical depth of the system, and tended to play leaders or controllers. So the casual players stick to using their simplest abilities while the experienced players keep giving them "until the end of your next turn" buffs that the recipients don't want to deal with and sometimes trying to make "optimal" decisions for them.

So in my (admittedly limited) experience, 4e didn't work well at all for casual players. The clear and consistent rules were overshadowed by all of the factors that they had to consider at each decision point during play.

We may have different definitions of a casual player, however. I'm using the term to describe a player who plays in a regular or semi-regular game but his or her involvement with D&D ends when the gaming session ends. The player doesn't own any D&D books, doesn't read anyone else's D&D books, and essentially doesn't even think about D&D when not playing.
 

Which is 'casting a wide net.'
Sorry, I'm a results based kinda guy. I accept that intent is good enough for you. But in my original comment, to which you objected, I was not speaking to "intent".

If you think you can do so without irony.

I'm actually pretty change-adverse. If something is significantly different, it needs to be even more-significantly /better/ to win me over.
I'm not sure that is exactly a deep position to be taking.

I don't often meet people who praise things saying " this is so much worse than it used to be, but thank god it didn't stay the same."

3e cleared that bar. 4e cleared it spectacularly. 5e doesn't need to - it's not different enough from AD&D and 3e to warrant it. They've had that aspect of it right since the first playtest packet. My only reservation was that it might be significantly /worse/ than 3e, which, so far, it hasn't shown itself to be.
OK, you are rambling off on a tangent without much connection to your own point. So be it.
 


Are you implying that D&D's success is based on how loudly/frequently people express their disdain for it
No. I am asking [MENTION=59082]Mercurius[/MENTION] if that is the metric - because that is basically the only evidence put forward to enable us to "safely say that 5E is a success".

Those were mostly things that edition warriors latched onto, but they were either nonsense or would require a much thinner skin than the fanbase has displayed before or since

<snip>

But you did catch a real issue in that list of edition-war-era talking points
This.

Mercurius is writing as if, at this time in 4e's rollout, we could already tell that it would be a "failure", despite the fact that it was successfully selling a lot of books, because the Alexandrian wrote a blog attacking it for "dissociated mechanics" and for not being a RPG.

My own assertion, made upthread and repeated here, is this: if the opinions of the Alexandrian and other online "pundits" are crucial to the medium-term success of any edition of D&D, then the market is small enough and that the overall goal of growing RPGers has failed. Contrast the LotR movies, which did not depend for their success on the opinions of a handful of Tolkien purists.

5E martial characters really just continue from Essentials martial characters
The player of an Essentials slayer can decide when to spike. The player of a 5e champion can't. I think that's a very significant difference, in design and in play experience.

I think the whole AEDU thing appealed especially to the type of player who liked to play a wizard and think tactically, for the type of player who just wanted to hang out, eat pretzels and bash orcs, it was a nightmare. I had one poor guy who just didn't get it and was always kind of miserable because he would watch as another, very tactically minded player, would do ungodly things with his rogue.
I remember similar things in many AD&D games, only it was watching ungodly things be done by the spell casters. I'm not sure how you think 5e will avoid this.

5E has reduced the need for the kind of system mastery that had, I think, distanced many casual players.
I like the fact that it is a simpler game at its core than the previous couple editions, and that it doesn't require the complex web of sub-systems and optimizations of the last couple editions.
It seems to me that anyone playing a blaster wizard has a lot of optimisation calculations to perform, given that s/he will have to choose which spell in which slot every round. It's like having to make your AD&D-style spell load-out decisions on a round-by-round basis.
 

Oh boy, a lot to reply to - I'll just have to go in order. Backing up a bit...

I disagree. Every edition of D&D attracts a large number of new gamers. Players relentlessly attrit out of the hobby, and new ones take their place. WotC recently remarked that the average age of D&D players is college-aged. Don't let the fact that RPG forums are dominated by 30-50 year old hardcores who have been playing for 15+ years fool you into thinking they're representative of the D&D market. I'd be surprised if the median duration players stick with D&D is longer than 4 or 5 years.

But it isn't about the "Aging Hardcore Few" being representative, but that they (we) are the core of the market, the folks that will buy every single round of core books, edition after edition, even if we're in a multi-year lull. The Hardcore Few are the "bird in hand" - the Faithful, if you will, but shouldn't be taken for granted or not seen as important. So while casual players come and go, the Hardcore Few...abide.

Again, you’re using overly-simplistic stereotypes as belief. Personally, I like “getting dirty” with a sword in my hand and up close & personal with the enemy. If your backside is in the fire, as it were, I like to go in and pull you out. I like shaping the battlefield. If I’m the “master of combat” I want to actually have the tools to fulfill that roll besides having a sheet of stats for a fictitious whack-a-mole player.

Conversely, what makes people think there aren’t players who want to channel The Evil bomber What Bombs at Midnight? Some players just want to see the “world” burn.

Sorry, but you lost me here! Not sure what you're saying.

Again, belief vs. actuality. System mastery in early 4E wasn't a big deal. It was only somewhat in very early 3E. As teh system grew, it became more an issue.

Wait, you mean my belief vs. your belief, right? :cool:

Seriously though, I somewhat agree with you in that system mastery--in any edition--becomes a bigger deal once the splats get out of hand. But in 4E part of the problem, or challenge really, was tactical mastery. For players that think tactically, 4E combat is a blast, while for those that don't it is difficult, even demoralizing as you end up seeming ineffective compared to the Tactical Masters (see, for instance, [MENTION=11999]Keldryn[/MENTION]'s post).

In a sense, they did. When 3e consolidated myriad resolution mechanics into d20 vs DC; when 4e consolidated combat modifiers and conditions into Combat Advantage. Likewise, re-rolls, or roll-take-the-highest mechanics are nothing new.

Just as bounded accuracy is like the treadmill slowed down, Adv/Dis is a lot like CA, a non-stacking combat modifier.

Right. I don't feel like I have a really strong handle on 5E yet, but maybe one difference is that A/D is almost more like a DM boon, while CA was something a PC could position for. Anyhow, A/D seems more flexible somehow, less specific - which I like, but some might find too indistinct.

Exactly. By falling back on familiar structures, 5e feels intuitive to folks who have dealt with the originals for decades.

Well not only that, but it is less abstract and simpler in terms of primary activities and game play. The strength and weakness of 4E combat is that it was so tactical, so abstract - combat was a game within the game, and you played your character like he was your avatar in a combat environment. 5E harkens back to theater of mind, where "I swing my sword" rather than "my character uses an encounter power."

I think some people, especially those who didn't grow up with video games, had a hard time with that.

Basic 5e presents a range of class complexity that exceeds even that in the 3e PH. The Champion fighter is dead-simple compared even to the 3e Barbarian, while the Wizard and Cleric are complex even compared to their tier-1 counterparts. I'm not sure if that's the point you were making, though.

Well yes, that's part of it. It seems that 5E doesn't require nearly as much complexity as 3E and 4E did, and it would be more easy to pull someone off the street, hand them a fighter character, and say "roll d20," whereas a 4E swordmage requires a relatively advanced tactical mind and understanding of the game.

You really have to see new players trying 4e to believe how well it worked for them, and for casual play. It was deceptive, because it changed so much that, to an oldtimer, it felt almost impenetrable, but to new players, it was an open book - clear and consistent.

I think it really depends upon who those new players are.

And, while it was, like 3e, hard to master, the rewards for system mastery were intentionally minimized, so you didn't have these balance issues with new players entering established groups or power-players bombing casual play.

Again, with 4E I think tactical mastery was at least as important. 4E privileged those who had a certain kind of tactical mind, and actually penalized people who didn't.

Apologies if I focused too much on responding to the other side and implying a balance. I actually had the "two to tango" phrase in my mind. The edition wars took on a life of their own and a there is plenty of blame to toss around.

Totally!

Again, I agree. But this did happen to some D&D fans when 3E came along and the degree of "war" was nothing comparable. 3E brought radical change to D&D. People who didn't like the change were not called closed-minded haters who simply hated change because it was change or of whining about not getting their way. It DOES take two here and there was plenty of "oh my GOD, these are radical changes, this sux, the shot my game, etc..." But the tolerance of alternative opinions was largely lacking. Or at least the outspoken aggressive outrage at alternative opinions was every bit as vocal as the outspoken aggressive outrage over the changes themselves. So the idea that the simple presence or absence of "whining" is fundamental to the conversation fails to get the foundation.

While reading this the thought arose that perhaps the amount of years mattered? Maybe there's a sub-conscious, perhaps even natural, life-cycle to an edition? 3E came out after 11 years of 2E, while 4E came out after 8 years of 2E. Maybe there's something about that decade mark that is "right"? I don't know, just a thought.

I also think it has a lot to do with how much 4E veered from traditional D&D tropes, from AEDU powers to dragonborn, tiefling and eladrin in the Player's Handbook, etc. It really might have done better as a "variant" D&D that focused on tactical play. I'd love to see how it would look as a module for 5E.

I really like what I see of 5E. But if someone loved a prior edition of D&D and doesn't see that same "feel" in 5E. That is a fair opinion. Respecting it as such would be a good lesson learned.

No doubt!


I Have Cometh.

Wouldn't something like this work regardless of the books? I mean it doesn't matter in the slightest what edition we are in, movies will follow their own rules (if they have rules at all) and will (at best) rely on old material that made the grade....

...The major requirement is that the movies be GOOD. A few good DnD movies and there might be a chance to get to DnD's version "Guardians of the Galaxy" but until we get some good ones with semi-well known properties we are stuck in neutral.

I think we're in agreement here, with the bottom line being what I put in bold.

So, I think the concept of a 5e golden age, or renaissance or whatever you want to call it, is a non-issue as far as DnD movies are concerned. It might matter some years later but that will still only be based on the new fluff that comes out in the mean time. Though in that regard I still expect them to avoid the disjointed parts in favour of the joined parts. Unless DnD/WotC/Hasbro needs the money from 5e DnD, I don't think it really matters if the game is a success or an abject failure.

Successful D&D movies would bring greater interest to the game. Maybe not another wave of 20 million, but probably some lapsed players from the 80s and 90s would wander back and take a look, although I think the holy grail is more of a new, young generation falling in love with the game. That's where movies are hugely important.

3e cleared that bar. 4e cleared it spectacularly. 5e doesn't need to - it's not different enough from AD&D and 3e to warrant it. They've had that aspect of it right since the first playtest packet. My only reservation was that it might be significantly /worse/ than 3e, which, so far, it hasn't shown itself to be.

See for me this is part of the appeal - not the possibility of being worse than 3E, but being similar to AD&D and 3E - but without the same weaknesses. Like 3E, it is modernized and much cleaner than AD&D, but unlike 3E it doesn't (yet) have the heaviness of bloat. I also do hope we see a few gonzo-esque 4Eish modules in the DMG and later books, at least as options.
 

While reading this the thought arose that perhaps the amount of years mattered? Maybe there's a sub-conscious, perhaps even natural, life-cycle to an edition? 3E came out after 11 years of 2E, while 4E came out after 8 years of 2E. Maybe there's something about that decade mark that is "right"? I don't know, just a thought.
IMO, not at all. I don't think the time had anything to do with it. There is always going to be the "making me buy new stuff" complaints and all. But 3E had seemed to have run its course with a lot of people. (Total tangent, but PF still today seems more popular than 3E *seemed to be* 3 months before 4E was announced. I think there are several reasons for this)

I also think it has a lot to do with how much 4E veered from traditional D&D tropes, from AEDU powers to dragonborn, tiefling and eladrin .
Now this is where I do agree. But it isn't any one thing. For me personally it was strongly about the gamist/simulation issue. But I know there were others who didn't care about my issue at all, but were bothered by the issues you list, or others. And 4E, particularly early 4E, had a strong "this is the way" approach. Remember that the idea of vast numbers of new players were going to flood into the hobby was key and there was vast praise for everything being set in a simple form for new players, and moreso for new DMs. So breaking out of the molds was looked down upon. Expressing a desire for more complexity was actively criticized as being a selfish means of thwarting new players for your own benefit.

The bottom line of all that was that there was a strong sense of correctness for a core fanbase and there were large numbers of people unhappy for a widely diverse range of reasons. But the reasons didn't matter. There was a lot of negative language targeted at anyone who complained, for whatever reason. And, yes, a lot of the complaints were in harsh terms from the start. But it doesn't take long at all for harsh words in both directions to completely lose track of how it started.
 

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