D&D 5E 5.0 necromancer

[Herobizkit]

Where is the source of this 5.0 Necromancer?

 

[evilbob]

Where is the source of this 5.0 Necromancer?

This is all from the PHB wizard.

 

[evilbob]

Thinking about this more, I think adding this line to Animate Dead would solve the problem: You can control a maximum number of skeletons and zombies up to your Intelligence score.

That still lets you make tons of stuff, but it puts a much more reasonable cap on it. And it actually gives Create Undead a purpose, whereas now "more skeles" is just typically better.

 

[Jack the Lad]

Thinking about this more, I think adding this line to Animate Dead would solve the problem: You can control a maximum number of skeletons and zombies up to your Intelligence score.

That still lets you make tons of stuff, but it puts a much more reasonable cap on it. And it actually gives Create Undead a purpose, whereas now "more skeles" is just typically better.

There's been a lot of talk about the crazy number of skeletons you can summon, but not much about how few it takes to obsolete other classes.

Here is the Fighter's DPR, on average, at each PC level and enemy AC:

I made a comparative chart of how many skeletons it takes to beat that:

I've also put my earlier chart of how many skeletons you can summon or control at each level up alongside it.

As you can see, in almost all situations it is trivial to beat or even double the Fighter's DPR (as a bonus action) with 1 or 2 spell slots.

 

[evilbob]

I still don't think that's a big deal because the same argument can be made for the entire evocation school. Fireball potentially does WAY more damage than a fighter could do in one round; that's all there is to it. So 4 skeletons attacking someone should be compared to fireball, not fighter DPR. And it isn't even close to as good as fireball when it comes to damage.

It's not really a big deal until you get tons and tons of guys all at once; that is when the action economy thing starts to really unravel, because you're using the equivalent of 4 or 5 spell slots in one bonus action. THAT is crazy - the fact that 4 or 5 spell slots does more damage than a fighter is meaningless. I mean: of course it does.

They even made Delayed Blast Fireball into a concentration spell - that's how important it is to conserve how many spells can go off at one time. But Animate Dead is an exception they missed.


Side point: anything that resists or is immune to non-magical attacks pretty much throws the chart out the window, and fighters zoom WAY ahead with a single +1 magic weapon. Even if you manage to get up to a few dozen skeletons, one stone golem is all it takes to destroy your entire army.

Edit:

I've also put my earlier chart of how many skeletons you can summon or control at each level up alongside it.

In all seriousness, your charts are awesome. Thanks for going to all that trouble to do all the analysis! Even if I disagree it will definitely help anyone else reading to know what is going on.

 

[evilbob]

Another way it could be limited would be that you could only control each "group" of animated undead you affected with each casting of the spell with one bonus action. So if you could only control up to 4 skeletons with a bonus action, it really wouldn't matter how many you made. Higher levels would let you command more, but still you're talking about controlling 12 or 14 skeletons at a time instead of 80-100.

Unfortunately there's no reading of the spell rules that would support this idea; it VERY clearly states that you control ALL creatures created by this spell with one bonus action. Also, the big downside is that your bookkeeping goes up even MORE, since you'd have to track which "group" each skeleton was in - probably why they didn't do this.

 

[Andor]

Well there are a few points to remember about the skellies.

Attrition. They are not that tough. AoE spells or effects like dragon breath will obliterate them.

Bulk. How many dungeons will actually let you deploy 100 skellies? A 10' wide corridor lets them march 2 abreast. The column is 50 skeelies, or 250' long. The back 10 ranks are at long range with their longbows while the front ranks are engaged in melee. And that DPR drops off significantly with disadvantage. And the tighter they cluster to defeat the bulk issue the more vulnerable they are to AoE.

Skellies in 5e are not, as Mouseferatu struggles to grok, mindless or immune to fear. That Dragon fear will cripple them. The only thing they get a pass on is poison.

Single point of failure. The Skellies are controlled, solely, by the Necromancer. If he goes down, and he is a squishy class who put all of his spell slots into skellies, they go wild. The Party will not be greatfull when he gets knocked out and the Skellies TPK the rest of them.

Not that great? Let's revist my point about the Mercs. According to the DMG supplement a typical merchants bodyguard is the Guard listing. The guard is weaker all around than the skellie, especially the boosted skelly. However the Bless pretty much wipes out that difference, as far as DPR goes, and the guards are much smarter. Plus they only need verbal commands so they are entirely outside the action economy and they don't go rogue when a single party member drops. Plus if you get your GM to let you recruit some Thugs instead of guards, they are much better. Oddly enough. Again, the Necromancer isn't really doing anything anyone with cash cannot do.

 

[grimslade]

Again, the Necromancer isn't really doing anything anyone with cash cannot do.

The Necromancer: A Frugal General

I am not seeing 100 skellies all getting an attack off simultaneously. I think this is a perfect storm level of coordination between victim, terrain, and PCs. Great in theory, and almost impossible to achieve at the table. I love that a necro can be an equal to other casters however without having to resort to the lesser schools of magic.

 

[abelmort]

Has anyone taken Finger of Death into consideration? After reading this thread I'm suddenly thinking it is very broken.

A humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie that is permanently under your command, following verbal orders to the best of its ability.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I find it amusing that we all seem to have neglected the fact that a handful of mid-level clerics are just going to obliterate this entire skeleton army.