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D&D 5E I think we can safely say that 5E is a success, but will it lead to a new Golden Era?

prosfilaes

Adventurer
But does the absence of edition-war rhetoric serve as a useful predictor for (2)? If it does, that is a sad thing, because a corollary is that many/most people can't choose not to play a game without feeling the need to launch salvos against that game and those who are playing it.

Every time a player says "Edition n+1 does this so much better", they're also saying "Edition n did this so much worse". Not to mention that unlike Mage versus Werewolf or even Champions versus Mutants and Masterminds, the birth of a new edition rise from the corpse of the last. A new edition means that new material isn't coming out for their game, that new copies of books are going to be harder to find and that new players are less likely to be familiar with the old system or interested in learning it. A new edition really hurts those who don't like the new edition.

If the sane standard for a successful RPG is (say) $10 million sales and a 5% return on investment, and WotC's standards for maintaining a product line with a dedicated staff is (say) $50 million sales and a 10% return on investment, then WotC will cut a RPG even if by the sane standards it is successful (eg because making $15 million sales with a 6% return on investment).

Historically, TSR did that all the time. Designers and Dragons argues that Star Frontiers may have been the best selling science fiction campaign when it was canceled, and Alternity wasn't doing too bad as sci-fi RPGs went either. I'm pretty sure that every AD&D setting TSR retired was selling better then any non-TSR non-WoD fantasy setting at the time.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Every time a player says "Edition n+1 does this so much better", they're also saying "Edition n did this so much worse".
Sure, praising A as better than B implies that B is worse than A. At the moment on another thread I'm trying to persuade [MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION] that 4e's cover rules are easier to use, in play, than 5e's because they require less finicky adjudication.

But that's not what I mean by an edition war. (And I don't think that's what [MENTION=59082]Mercurius[/MENTION] means either.) By an edition war I mean attacks upon the game as "not RPGing", or "not D&D", or "a tactical skirmish game rather than an RPG", or "making immersion/verisimilitude/roleplaying/whatever impossible".

That sort of stuff was fairly routine in relation to 4e. But it seems to me that there is no rule of RPG discourse that says, in choosing not to play game A, and even perhaps in explaining why you prefer to play game B, you have to characterise game A in those sorts of terms.

A new edition means that new material isn't coming out for their game, that new copies of books are going to be harder to find and that new players are less likely to be familiar with the old system or interested in learning it. A new edition really hurts those who don't like the new edition.
If people feel the need to lament, rather than just sucking it up, I still don't see any requirement that the lament take the form of vitriolic arguments that others are playing RPGs wrong.
 

prosfilaes

Adventurer
But that's not what I mean by an edition war. (And I don't think that's what @Mercurius means either.) By an edition war I mean attacks upon the game as "not RPGing", or "not D&D", or "a tactical skirmish game rather than an RPG", or "making immersion/verisimilitude/roleplaying/whatever impossible".

Then

many/most people can't choose not to play a game without feeling the need to launch salvos against that game and those who are playing it.

is quite overblown hyperbole.

That sort of stuff was fairly routine in relation to 4e. But it seems to me that there is no rule of RPG discourse that says, in choosing not to play game A, and even perhaps in explaining why you prefer to play game B, you have to characterise game A in those sorts of terms.

If people feel the need to lament, rather than just sucking it up, I still don't see any requirement that the lament take the form of vitriolic arguments that others are playing RPGs wrong.

Which seems to be a pretty one-sided view of the edition war; an awful lot of vitriol ran the other way too, and the 4eers saw no willingness to suck it up in the least and showed a willingness to treat stuff like "it broke immersion for me" as a vitriolic attack. It does take two to tango.

And the outrage that someone might have a definition of D&D that's not "whatever the current trademark owner considers D&D" and might not consider D&D 4e D&D under that definition strikes me as a little silly.
 

Morty

First Post
5e will sell, no doubt. Whether or not it'll meet Hasbro's inflated expectations I don't know, and I honestly don't give a toss - not my problem. But what it won't do is change the industry in any way, certainly not for the better. It's simply too reactionary, too desperate to play it safe and too fixated on being just like the good, old editions.
 


Imaro

Legend
5e will sell, no doubt. Whether or not it'll meet Hasbro's inflated expectations I don't know, and I honestly don't give a toss - not my problem. But what it won't do is change the industry in any way, certainly not for the better. It's simply too reactionary, too desperate to play it safe and too fixated on being just like the good, old editions.

I'm always curious when I see a post like this... what should it be fixated on being like? It's the number one brand (for the most part) of the market... the number two (and/or other number one at times) in the market is just a different version of D&D so what exactly should it be trying to be similar too? People like D&D... if they wanted something else they'd play one of the numerous alternatives out there now?

IMO, if anything D&D should be trying to re-establish, refine, streamline and perfect the winning formula it's had for years... not go for something totally different. They tried that with 4e and while it may not have been a failure in the literal sense, I don't think they would have branched the newest edition off in such a different direction if they felt a 4e base could have been the base for success this time around (and if it's as small as [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] seems to think it is that says alot about the popularity of 4e) until another game can usurp D&D (and is not itself D&D) I'm failing to see an actual reason for massive change except for the sake of change... options, tweaks, refinements sure... drastic change, why again??
 

Greg K

Legend
But does the absence of edition-war rhetoric serve as a useful predictor for (2)? If it does, that is a sad thing, because a corollary is that many/most people can't choose not to play a game without feeling the need to launch salvos against that game and those who are playing it.

I think that this time around, many people like myself said what we had to say during the playtest and rarely comment about our disappointment. Personally, I am waiting for the DMG to see what options are presented at which which point I will either a) pick up the game or b) skip it and just bring in the few thing that I do like into my house ruled 3e for when I want to run D&D (just as i have incorporated elements of 1e,2e, and 4e)
 

Morty

First Post
I'm always curious when I see a post like this... what should it be fixated on being like? It's the number one brand (for the most part) of the market... the number two (and/or other number one at times) in the market is just a different version of D&D so what exactly should it be trying to be similar too? People like D&D... if they wanted something else they'd play one of the numerous alternatives out there now?

IMO, if anything D&D should be trying to re-establish, refine, streamline and perfect the winning formula it's had for years... not go for something totally different. They tried that with 4e and while it may not have been a failure in the literal sense, I don't think they would have branched the newest edition off in such a different direction if they felt a 4e base could have been the base for success this time around (and if it's as small as @Tony Vargas seems to think it is that says alot about the popularity of 4e) until another game can usurp D&D (and is not itself D&D) I'm failing to see an actual reason for massive change except for the sake of change... options, tweaks, refinements sure... drastic change, why again??

Form and function, my friend. WotC is obsessed with the former while they should be focusing on the latter. 5e could have taken the D&D franchise in a new direction, accomplishing what it's always been known for with more efficient, yet still familiar mechanics. Instead, the designers spent the design process fussing about 'feel' and making sure things are 'iconic', which more or less means making sure the mechanics look like they always have and willingly repeating old mistakes because they've been made before, even though they're obvious in hindsight - we have perspective today that the people who designed 3.0 all those years ago simply didn't. You're right about re-establishing, refining and streamlining, but that's not what 5e is doing. It's applying a new coat of paint to the old skeleton, and competing with Pathfinder over not actually doing anything new. Except even Pathfinder is less stagnant.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
5e will sell, no doubt. Whether or not it'll meet Hasbro's inflated expectations. But what it won't do is change the industry in any way, certainly not for the better. It's simply too reactionary, too desperate to play it safe and too fixated on being just like the good, old editions.
There's no sign Hasbro has inflated expectations this time around. The little we've heard from that quarter suggests that the policies that led to the unrealistic goals that 4e failed to meet are gone, and that WotC is now treated as a single business unit - one that, with the ongoing success of CCGs, has nothing to prove. 5e has a free ride on the business side. It doesn't have to try to better the performance of past eds by being innovative or 'better,' so it can safely rest on the D&D name and just not rock the boat. Which it's doing pretty well, really.

which seems to be a pretty one-sided view of the edition war; an awful lot of vitriol ran the other way too,
The edition war was a pretty one-sided conflict. Still, it wouldn't have been a 'war' if the defenders hadn't shot back at times.

Even were the character completely balanced with the others, what system is going to stop the player from using a suboptimal weapon or suboptimal tactics?
I'm not sure what you're getting at, here. Can someone willfully choose to be in effective? Sure. They can stand in a corner and do nothing. That doesn't mean a game where a player who builds to a great concept ends up with a character little more effective than the one standing in the corner, while one who cynically optimizes gets a character that can annihilate deities with a twitch of his little finger isn't a terrible game.

Balance is a very real quality that games have. The only reason to /want/ an imbalanced game is so that you can leverage that imbalance to ruin the game for others.


[qoute]
Not for me. I would like at some point to get to play Thog, in character, and Thog not know anything about "dailies". Thog maybe hit harder and wilder, but that extent of Thog thought about tactics.[/quote] Not exactly hard to do that kind of character, is it? In 3e, you'd play a barbarian, and use a daily (EX) ability to Rage. In prior editions he'd've been a fighter and unable even to do that. In Essentials, he'd be a Slayer and use Power Attack (an encounter resource) to hit harder and wilder, and, before that, in 4e, a Battlerager fighter and use powers like Brute Strike to hit harder and wilder.

So, if your concept is a simple character who hits things with a big weapon, you were good. If your concept cast spells, but you weren't ready for a complicated character, your options were a lot more limited. In most editions, limited to 'none.' In post-Essentials 4e, though, you could've had an Elemental Sorcerer who just blast things, and occassionally blast them harder with Elemental Escalation. Not much, but it'd've been a start it if hadn't been in the last book to introduce class options....


Except that AC, saves and a whole bunch of other features worked the same across all classes in the other editions. Certainly the claim that you must learn any non-4E edition of D&D de novo with any new class is silly.
Play a 1e fighter, what mechanics do you use? Well, you pick out armor and weapons that affect your AC and damage/attack, you roll to hit a lot, you roll damage, you take damage a lot, and you get healed by the cleric a lot. You occasionally make a saving throw. Magic-user? You automatically 'know' some spells, you try to find and 'learn' others, your AC isn't determined by armor, the damage you do with your spells isn't determined by weapons, you have only a few spells/day, so managing them is critical, each spell does something different, not just a different amount of damage (though that too). The overlap is hps and saves. That's basically nothing. Yes, it's virtually re-learning the system. My point was merely that you were learning a new class from scratch, not virtually the whole system, though.

How much difference the homogenized classes of 4E really make, I don't know;
The common AEDU class structure was a solid framework for balance and made learning and understanding the game much easier. It was a big enough difference that edition warriors felt the need to attack it with false and misleading labels like 'homogenized' or 'samey' - or even outright lie and decry it as "fighters casting spells." (Ironic aside: in 5e, fighters actually /do/ cast spells - Eldritch Knight being a Fighter sub-class.)


A new edition means that new material isn't coming out for their game, that new copies of books are going to be harder to find and that new players are less likely to be familiar with the old system or interested in learning it. A new edition really hurts those who don't like the new edition.
That was true for AD&D fans when 3.0 came out, and it's /very/ true now for 4e fans with 5e coming out.

Ironically, the one time absolutely wasn't true - that is, when the fans of the old edition were able to look forward to a constant stream of new material, supporting material, complementary games that would introduce new players to the same system, and even virtual-reprint 'clones' - was the one time those fans had the most violent and destructive reaction against the new edition. That reaction was so destructive, we call it the edition war.
 
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Imaro

Legend
Form and function, my friend. WotC is obsessed with the former while they should be focusing on the latter. 5e could have taken the D&D franchise in a new direction, accomplishing what it's always been known for with more efficient, yet still familiar mechanics.

Yes, but what would said "new direction" be? Also... how can it go in a "new direction" and accomplish "what it's always been known for"... not saying it's impossible just looking for an example, perhaps an rpg that has done this in the past?? Now I agree you can do what you've always been known for with more efficient and familiar mechanics... but then I'm not seeing how 5e didn't do this?

Instead, the designers spent the design process fussing about 'feel' and making sure things are 'iconic', which more or less means making sure the mechanics look like they always have and willingly repeating old mistakes because they've been made before, even though they're obvious in hindsight - we have perspective today that the people who designed 3.0 all those years ago simply didn't.

Well if they weren't "fussing" about feel and making sure re-establishing the iconic things in D&D... the game wouldn't be accomplishing what it always has... would it? It'd be a different game...right?

Exactly what willingly repeated "mistakes" are you speaking too? I'm assuming you mean the same problems in 3.x (thought I don't want to assume)... if so could you give some examples of the ones in 5e?


You're right about re-establishing, refining and streamlining, but that's not what 5e is doing. It's applying a new coat of paint to the old skeleton, and competing with Pathfinder over not actually doing anything new. Except even Pathfinder is less stagnant.

Wait are you claiming 5e is the exact same game as 3.x? Funny I don't remember bounded accuracy, advantage/disadvantage, limited magic items, etc. being a part of 3.x. If anything it seems that exactly what they are doing is taking the familiar and refining and streamlining it... to claim that 5e is 3.x with "a new coat of paint" is... well wrong. As for the pot shots aginst Pathfinder... not sure how they even tie into what I asked about since I was talking about WotC and D&D but it does help to establish your bias in this matter. Let me guess, 4e fan... right?
 

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