D&D 5E [Guidance] What, +1d4 to every check ever?

[Falling Icicle]

I can understand why people would be annoyed if a player was exploiting the rules to make an overpowered character, but using a spell as written and intended is not what I'd call a personality problem.

 

[synthapse]

In terms of its power...think of it this way, it effectively makes the cleric proficient in ALL skills. Every single one. Better even, the skills he is proficient with he is even better at.

Nope.

Let's run through the list again:
1. Guidance and Stealth checks are pretty much mutually exclusive, due to the verbal component.
2. Guidance and most social skills (other than Intimidate) are incompatible, because people will be suspicious.
3. Guidance with skills in combat is unreliable, as the caster might already have a concentration spell going.

Saying that Guidance is overpowered is a debate. Saying that Guidance equals proficiency in all skills is not-- it's just wrong.

 

[KarinsDad]

I normally have a chat about how they don't fit into our long established play style and should probably find a different group.

Harsh.

I guess you don't make a lot of new friends these days.

 

[Stalker0]

Nope.

Let's run through the list again:
1. Guidance and Stealth checks are pretty much mutually exclusive, due to the verbal component.
2. Guidance and most social skills (other than Intimidate) are incompatible, because people will be suspicious.
3. Guidance with skills in combat is unreliable, as the caster might already have a concentration spell going.

1) Making a stealth check to keep sneaking around, I agree. Making a stealth check to hide really quick, guidance has you covered.

2) Doing a diplomacy check in the middle of a negotiation, agreed. Walking into the room and making the big speech, guidance has you covered.


Bottom line is, in situations where guidance can be used...and that is a very large list, it is proficiency in every skill. Need to recall knowledge on any subject, check. Plan to walk into a shop and haggle with a merchant, check. Need to climb a wall, check. Need to find out which way is north, check. Need to calm a horse down, check. Need to swim across a river, check.

 

[synthapse]

1) Making a stealth check to keep sneaking around, I agree. Making a stealth check to hide really quick, guidance has you covered.

2) Doing a diplomacy check in the middle of a negotiation, agreed. Walking into the room and making the big speech, guidance has you covered.


Bottom line is, in situations where guidance can be used...and that is a very large list, it is proficiency in every skill. Need to recall knowledge on any subject, check. Plan to walk into a shop and haggle with a merchant, check. Need to climb a wall, check. Need to find out which way is north, check. Need to calm a horse down, check. Need to swim across a river, check.

Even with the big speech or the negotiation, or unless it's a really quick stealth need, guidance only lasts for one minute. Most conversations take longer than a minute; so do most big speeches. Guidance fails to cover those situations. And, still, it's mostly for out-of-combat situations. Need to swim across a river-- guidance is your friend. Need to swim across the river while goblin archers are shooting at you-- guidance probably won't be much help. It's still not as good as being proficient in a skill. It's certainly not as good as being proficient in all skills.

 

[Joe Liker]

Bottom line is, in situations where guidance can be used...and that is a very large list, it is proficiency in every skill. Need to recall knowledge on any subject, check. Plan to walk into a shop and haggle with a merchant, check. Need to climb a wall, check. Need to find out which way is north, check. Need to calm a horse down, check. Need to swim across a river, check.

Starting at level 9, when the proficiency bonus is +4, this cantrip is only about half as good as proficiency. By comparison, all bards are half-proficient (at minimum) in every skill starting at level 2, all the time, without having to cast a spell.

Plus 1d4 on a skill check is nice, but it's not exactly an auto-success. It's basically the same as a circumstance bonus from previous editions.

There seem to be a lot of DMs who think creating and maintaining challenge is their primary role. It is not. The primary role of a DM is to make the game fun. Maintaining challenge is a small part of that. A much bigger, more important part is letting the players use their abilities to their advantage and feel powerful in doing so.

In the grand scheme of things, guidance is an easy way to let players feel good about their characters and teamwork, and it does not wreck the game. It improves their chance of success by a blistering 12.5 percent. Big woop. Trust me, your game will be better if you just let them have their fun. People are far more likely to lose interest in a campaign where the DM is overly draconian than if things are a tiny bit on the easy side. It is human nature to like to win, after all.

 

[bganon]

Just curious: how do people who dislike Guidance feel about the Help action? Because while it doesn't last as long, it's a totally spammable ability that grants advantage to every ability check ever.

I mean, yes, Help stacks with Guidance. But if a constrained situation comes up where the Cleric has only one action to give and I have to decide whether to ask for "Help" or "Guidance", probably most of the time I'm going to ask for "Help" -- for moderate DCs advantage is much better than +1d4.

 

[Li Shenron]

Just curious: how do people who dislike Guidance feel about the Help action? Because while it doesn't last as long, it's a totally spammable ability that grants advantage to every ability check ever.

It feels different.

Help (or "Working together") grants advantage. It depends on the situation, but often this means that the secondary character is giving up her chance of trying at the task, so in a sense this means instead of two characters rolling a d20 each, you get one character rolling two d20. There can be some subtle differences (e.g. in case there are hazards, i.e. critical failures if you miss the DC by 5 or more).

In combat, it's a non-issue, but then Guidance also isn't an issue in combat since the Cleric is spending her action this turn, so the cost makes it fair.

There are situations where Help can be "spammable", e.g. if you let two players Help each other. Let's say 2 characters are climbing together, and you let the first grant advantage to the second, and also viceversa.

I really think this kind of situations needs the DM to step in and make some sensible decision... they are part of the more general topic of dealing with group skill checks and with possible unlimited retries (if you allow unlimited retries on a task, Help is a moot point).

Guidance is more tricky because its so plain and simple that you can hardly say NO to a player using it. You can say "if you cast it now, they will hear you and it will spoil your stealth" or "if you cast it in the middle of a conversation, everybody knows you're using magic to support your speaker". But you can't say "the spell doesn't work" if the prior situation allows casting it.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I strongly prefer the use of help and guidance to constant re-rolling ("I try again") or take-20. You muster resources, see how you do, and then live with the results.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Starting at level 9, when the proficiency bonus is +4, this cantrip is only about half as good as proficiency. By comparison, all bards are half-proficient (at minimum) in every skill starting at level 2, all the time, without having to cast a spell.

That feature is one of the things that sets bards apart. A cleric shouldn't be able to imitate that most of the time with a 0th level spell starting at level 1, IMO.

Plus 1d4 on a skill check is nice, but it's not exactly an auto-success. It's basically the same as a circumstance bonus from previous editions.

No one ever said it was an auto-success.

There seem to be a lot of DMs who think creating and maintaining challenge is their primary role. It is not. The primary role of a DM is to make the game fun. Maintaining challenge is a small part of that. A much bigger, more important part is letting the players use their abilities to their advantage and feel powerful in doing so.

In the grand scheme of things, guidance is an easy way to let players feel good about their characters and teamwork, and it does not wreck the game. It improves their chance of success by a blistering 12.5 percent. Big woop. Trust me, your game will be better if you just let them have their fun. People are far more likely to lose interest in a campaign where the DM is overly draconian than if things are a tiny bit on the easy side. It is human nature to like to win, after all.

My dislike for the ability has far more to do with the annoyance of having people constantly announce its use than it does with its affect on balance. Still, a +2.5 to your rolls is not insignificant in a system with bounded accuracy.