D&D 5E Druid 20 = Infinite Hit Points

[pming]

Hiya.
@secondhander: I don't see a problem with that at all. I'd rather use the "all damage taken in wildshape transfers", myself. For me that seems to fit my idea of how a druid's shapechange should work; a druid changes into a full-health animal because he's basically "picturing a healthy animal in his head" and changing into that vision. However, when wounded, he is actually wounded; as HP's in 5e are much more than simple "meat damage" (involving luck, divine favor, personal drive, etc), when a druid goes to change back into his normal form, he takes that 'damage' with him because he can't picture a fully healthy 'himself' (go ahead and try and picture yourself in a perfect way...see?...can't do it...dang psychology! ).


@Mouseferatu: I see what you're saying...and what others are saying too. It's that "However" and their example saying the druid has 1hp left, reverting, and transferring 9hp. If they didn't have that "1hp remaining" part, I think it would be pretty clear. But it doesn't. I also stand by my assertion that "What makes more sense? Damage, or infinite hp?"; are there any other class abilities at 20th level that offer virtual immortality? No? Then obviously 'we' are interpreting it incorrectly. Maybe it was on purpose, maybe they had two versions and something got gibbled in editing, or maybe it was a case of the brain thinking one thing and the fingers typing another. No matter what the reason, it *still* makes more sense that they didn't intend for a druid to have infinite hp's at level 20...

I also like the visual of a druid in wolf form limping into the woodcutters garden, massive wounds bleeding profusely, collapsing on the ground and reverting to human form...with cuts and all...and passing out. That just seems "right" to me from a fantasy story perspective. Him limping into the woodcutters garden, vicious wounds pouring blood, then suddenly reverting into a perfectly normal human form and saying "Wow...*hehe*...that sucked. So, what's for lunch?" just doesn't quite ring out as "good fantasy" to me...

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[machineelf]

He, pming. Thanks for the response. However that's a little different from what I had in mind. I am proposing two pools of hitpoints, one for the druid's normal form, and one for the druid's shapechange forms. So if a druid is in an animal form with 20 hitpoints, and takes 25 points of damage, then yes he reverts back to normal form and takes the additional 5 hitpoints to his normal pool of hitpoints, as per the rules as they are. But I am saying that in addition to that, if the druid is in an animal form with 20 hitpoints, and then takes 10 points of damage, and then wants to change into another animal form before a short rest, he will carry over that 10 points of damage into any future animal form (until a short rest is taken). So if he changes into a form that has 30 max hitpoints, he will be at 20 in that form. And if he wants to change into a form that has 8 max hitpoints, he can't, because it's not enough to cover the 10 hitpoints he already has for his shapechange forms. Once he takes a short rest, he is restored and no longer suffers from hitpoint damage to his shapechange forms.

That's what I have in mind, anyhow.

 

[Vowtz]

So, can anybody think of any drawbacks to the solution I proposed above, about having two pools of hitpoints (one for a druid's normal form, and one for the druid's shapechanged form) where damage to the shapechange form is retained even when the druid changes to a new shape (restored after a short rest)?

It's what I'm thinking about doing, and I'm wondering if it will cause any other rules problems that I'm not seeing yet.

the "two pools" solution can balance the class, but will greatly reduce the Druid's "tank capabilities". Therefore, It has a great impact in gameplay.

The "one pool" solution has an even greater impact on gameplay,
but I agree with Ming that in terms of roleplay it is the best.


My own solution will be changing the refresh rate from "Short Rest"
to "Long Rest" and changing 20th level's "unlimited" to "6".

this way he can still tank a little but will not auto win melee battles
without any consequence.

What do you guys think?

 

[Mouseferatu]

It's that "However" and their example saying the druid has 1hp left, reverting, and transferring 9hp. If they didn't have that "1hp remaining" part, I think it would be pretty clear.

I'm not meaning to be rude, but I absolutely cannot comprehend where the confusion lies. It mentions that the druid had 1 hp remaining in his animal form as part of the example, to explain why 9 of the 10 hp of damage transferred over.

The "however" is because this is an exception to the normal wild shape pattern.

Normal pattern: Revert from animal form, return to the hp you had before you became an animal.

However: If the reason you reverted was from dropping to 0--as opposed to any other reason (hence "however")--and if there is excess damage, you do not revert to the hp you had before you changed, but instead that number minus the excess damage.

It's not muddled. It's not unclear. It's "If X, then Y."

If you want to argue that the power is broken or was poorly thought through, hey, have at it. If you want to suggest they didn't mean what they said, that's at least up for debate. But as far as how it's phrased? I'm sorry, but there's zero wiggle room there. It means what it means, by the basic rules of the English language--which does not have a Rule 0.

 

[drjones]

I think most of us agree that it's a poorly
designed rule, then?

Nope.

 

[Andor]

I think most of us agree that it's a poorly
designed rule, then?

No. It's a 20th level capstone ability. It makes a Druid hard to kill with a club, but more vulnerable to Power words and the Finger of Death. Hell, it makes you more vulnerable to Sleep.

This is broken and in dire need of fixing? Compared to whistling up a God on demand?

If, when your campaign gets to 20th level, it turns out to be a problem, then worry.

Druids healing on a shape change goes right back to 1e. It didn't work the same way, but so what? For most of a druids career shapechanging is a movement ability for one subclass, and a melee boost with a modest pile of HP for the subclass that specializes in shifting. Twice a day, usually, unless you can get in some secure rest time. I really don't see a problem with it. Hell, a barbarian has the most HP of any class, his AC improves as he boosts his HP, and he basically doubles his hp while raging. The Druid wishes he had it so good.

 

[drjones]

So, can anybody think of any drawbacks to the solution I proposed above, about having two pools of hitpoints (one for a druid's normal form, and one for the druid's shapechanged form) where damage to the shapechange form is retained even when the druid changes to a new shape (restored after a short rest)?

It's what I'm thinking about doing, and I'm wondering if it will cause any other rules problems that I'm not seeing yet.

It sounds like a significant nerf to the druid at every level up to 20, which are the ones where you most likely will actually be playing, to confront a theoretical issue at level 20. When you have 2 wildshapes part of your toolbox is the ability to shapechange twice and get a new HP pool both times. You will not be as good of a fighter or have as many HP as other classes but you can do it repeatedly. Now you are taking that away. it will not break the game but if I was a player I would be less likely to play a druid under that rule because wizards, clerics etc will probably be more effective.

Basically I would not do anything so drastic until I knew that it was actually a problem in-game.

 

[MightyZehir]

Well, I'm pretty sure this is not intended. But I don't see it as broken, there are plenty of ways to get around it. The druid can still be affected by plenty of spells and different conditions. At 20 Level , crazier happen all the time and most people don't even get to those level of plays, so there not much to worry about.

 

[MightyZehir]

the "two pools" solution can balance the class, but will greatly reduce the Druid's "tank capabilities". Therefore, It has a great impact in gameplay.

The "one pool" solution has an even greater impact on gameplay,
but I agree with Ming that in terms of roleplay it is the best.


My own solution will be changing the refresh rate from "Short Rest"
to "Long Rest" and changing 20th level's "unlimited" to "6".

this way he can still tank a little but will not auto win melee battles
without any consequence.

What do you guys think?

I wouldn't worry about it, it's a 20th level feature. I highly doubt that being very hard to kill with attacks will matter all that much then.

 

[Vowtz]

This is broken and in dire need of fixing? Compared to whistling up a God on demand?

You seem to be really impressed by that ability.

Like I already said, calling a god is not game breaking
because it is completely up to DM, it can be auto win or
auto lose, can be strong or can suck. You have no
control about it.

Druids healing on a shape change goes right back to 1e. It didn't work the same way, but so what? For most of a druids career shapechanging is a movement ability for one subclass, and a melee boost with a modest pile of HP for the subclass that specializes in shifting. Twice a day, usually, unless you can get in some secure rest time. I really don't see a problem with it. Hell, a barbarian has the most HP of any class, his AC improves as he boosts his HP, and he basically doubles his hp while raging. The Druid wishes he had it so good.

Barbarian got 240 hp x2(if it's physical damage)

Druids have 200 hp and get more than 100 on each turn forever.