D&D 5E D&D5E Duergar PC Race Suggestions

[doctorhook]

But, if you are feeling generous, here's some thoughts:
Duergar are basically dwarf tieflings so that could make it easy to refluff without any statistical changes. If you're feeling nice, tell him to roll a Tiefling whose appearance fits the Duergar appearance.

Strictly speaking, that's only true if you're used to 4E duergar. Previous editions' duergar were just "grey dwarves"--evil, bald, with light coloured beards and dark grey skin, and with innate psionic abilities that allowed them to enlarge and turn invisible. In 3E, duergar were related to a species of cambions/half-fiends called "durzagons", linked upthread by others. 4E's duergar killed the durzagon and took its stuff; 4E duergars were all basically durzagons. 5E seems to have reverted to the older type of duergar.

 

[Sunseeker]

Strictly speaking, that's only true if you're used to 4E duergar. Previous editions' duergar were just "grey dwarves"--evil, bald, with light coloured beards and dark grey skin, and with innate psionic abilities that allowed them to enlarge and turn invisible. In 3E, duergar were related to a species of cambions/half-fiends called "durzagons", linked upthread by others. 4E's duergar killed the durzagon and took its stuff; 4E duergars were all basically durzagons. 5E seems to have reverted to the older type of duergar.

So you're telling me 4E's duergar are basically tiefling dwarves, but earlier editions duergar(and variants) were dwarves related to demons.

So pardon me for my confusion, but last I checked tieflings were distant descendants of demons/devils. So, what exactly is the difference between dwarves related to demons and dwarves related to demons?

 

[Wrathamon]

So you're telling me 4E's duergar are basically tiefling dwarves, but earlier editions duergar(and variants) were dwarves related to demons.

So pardon me for my confusion, but last I checked tieflings were distant descendants of demons/devils. So, what exactly is the difference between dwarves related to demons and dwarves related to demons?

durzagons are related to devils ... duergar are just gray dwarves like drow are dark elves. They get some innate spell casting to grow and turn invisible (later it became psionic) so they arent anything like tieflings.

4e used the durzagons duergar as the default duergar ...

 

[doctorhook]

@Wrathamon's post cleared this up nicely, and I XP'd him for it, but it's worth repeating, so here I go.

So you're telling me 4E's duergar are basically tiefling dwarves, but earlier editions duergar(and variants) were dwarves related to demons.

Nope, no fiends of any kind. Pre-4E duergars were only related to dwarves, with the exception of half-fiendish duergars called "durzagons", who were a specific type of monster spawned from duergars breeding with devils. Pre-4E duergar were the dwarf-analogue of drow: evil, dark-skinned underdark-dwellers with innate magical (psionic) abilities.

In 4E, the mechanics and fluff for durzagons was absorbed by duergars, except that these new duergars were racially infernal and bred from each other (similar to tieflings), rather than each one being an actual half-fiend like the durzagon was.

So far, all signs point to 5E duergars being like pre-4E non-fiendish duergars.

 

[pu6elist]

Good one, though I'd go for one change - give them +1 to INT. 2 reasons - make them different and make them more wizard-like for their spell-like abilities. The thing that I really cannot get the hang of is the following line from the MM: "A duergar's mind is a fortress, able to shrug off charms, illusions, and other spells." soo, basically adv. on saves against spells?!

 

[pu6elist]

Alright, so here is my take on the duergar:

Apart from standard dwarven abilities (only the weapon proficiencies are changed):

STR: +1
Tool Proficiencies: one of smith's tools, mason's tools, poisoner's kit.
Combat Training: proficiency with throwing hammer, warhammer, war pick, and crossbow.
Languages: Common, Dwarven, Undercommon
Darkvision enhanced out to 120' (that's what the Drow have).
Sunlight Sensitivity: this is a biggie must if the player wants to use this race.
Duergar Magic: Enlarge and Invisibility 1/day both at 3-rd lvl, INT is the casting ability
Duergar Resilience: Advantage against mind controlling enchantments and illusions, resistance vs. psionic damage.

My reasoning: I think the darkvision/light sensitivity is self-explanatory. Tool proficiencies also. The resistance against the mind-flyer type of spells is due to their history of slaves to the illithids. Their magical abilities are both equally important and are both spells that require a 3-rd lvl Wizard. Their combat training is more suited to the Underdark. Regarding the +1 I wondered a lot. Now, they are nowhere near intelligent, and whatever charisma they might have had, they lost it during the enslavement. Wisdom will make them kind of like the hill dwarfs and I think the idea here is to have some variety. I thought about giving them immunity vs. mind controlling enchantments and illusions plus medium armor and shields and not giving them any +1 at all. I also thought about dexterity, but come on! So, since they are described as so resilient, I ended up with STR, but only +1, since they have those 2 spells and the mind control/psionic resistance.

Still, I'd like to know your opinion on the following options:
1) Mind control immunity, medium armor + shields training and no +1 whatsoever;
2) Only resistance/advantage to mind control and +1WIS or +1STR;
2a) with medium armor and shields;
2b) without medium armor and shields;
3) Still, if anyone thinks they deserve a +1DEX and has a good argument, let me know.

Thanks for your opinion in advance!

P.S. I tried only using the info in the MM and the suggestions for a new subrace in the DMG.

 

[ko6ux]

Dwarf traits +


+1 to Strength
Arcane Legacy. You know the Dancing Lights cantrip. Once you reach 3rd level, you can cast the Enlarge spell on yourself once per day as a 2nd-level spell. Once you reach 5th level, you can also cast the Invisibility spell on yourself once per day as well. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
Superior Darkvision. Your darkvision has a radius of 120 feet.
Sunlight Sensitivity. You have disadvantage on attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight.

 

[steeldragons]

Still, I'd like to know your opinion on the following options:
1) Mind control immunity, medium armor + shields training and no +1 whatsoever;
2) Only resistance/advantage to mind control and +1WIS or +1STR;
2a) with medium armor and shields;
2b) without medium armor and shields;
3) Still, if anyone thinks they deserve a +1DEX and has a good argument, let me know.

Thanks for your opinion in advance!

Well, I don't have the DMG so I don't know about the guidelines therein, but from the structure of other PC races, I would still break up the Enlarge and Invisibility to 1 of them at 3rd level and 1 of them at 5th. But that's me.

As for "immunity" I don't believe any other PC race has immunity to a whole range of effects. So that's big no from me on that. Advantage on enchantment magic and mind-effecting illusions (e.g. phantasmal force, phantasmal killer, etc...) and psychic damage resistance seems more than adequate.

And advantage against and resistance to poison, as per the MM & covered by Dwarven Resilience in the PHB as part of the base Dwarf package.

As for the +1, the other dwarf subraces have +1 to something...in fact I think all sub-races have an additional +1 to go with their initial +2, don't they? So I would do the dwarf standard +2 Con. and +1 on the Int., since it is their casting ability (which I agree with)...and lends to the "incredible mental fortitude" fluff.

As for armor/shield prof...Why? They have their weapon profs like other dwarves. Mountain dwarves have heavy armor prof. It's, like, their shtick as the die-hard warrior guys, I guess (completely arbitrary and unnecessary thing to distinguish them from hill dwarves, and OP, if you ask me). It fits their fluff, I guess I'm saying.

So that's another no, on the armor/shield prof, for PCs for me.

Duegar's fluff is psionic underdark slavers...or in 5e, it seems "psychically resilient from their former role as mind-flayer slaves-turned-underdark slavers." They use armor and weapons, sure. But I don't really see it so crucial to their society/being that it warrants a PC trait.

And with their innate magic and psychic/charm resistance I think they are up to speed (or even a bit ahead) of their dwarf (and other PC race). brothers & sisters.

 

[pu6elist]

As for armor/shield prof...Why? They have their weapon profs like other dwarves. Mountain dwarves have heavy armor prof. It's, like, their shtick as the die-hard warrior guys, I guess (completely arbitrary and unnecessary thing to distinguish them from hill dwarves, and OP, if you ask me). It fits their fluff, I guess I'm saying.

So that's another no, on the armor/shield prof, for PCs for me.

Duegar's fluff is psionic underdark slavers...or in 5e, it seems "psychically resilient from their former role as mind-flayer slaves-turned-underdark slavers." They use armor and weapons, sure. But I don't really see it so crucial to their society/being that it warrants a PC trait.

The weapons are strictly flavour. Since they have long been disconnected from their dwarven brethren, it seemed to me unnatural that they are proficient with axes. Their slave life in the underworld, though, has made them proficient with picks, therefore, I wanted to actually substitute the axes with picks, keeping the hammers. Also, the crossbows are the weapon of choice for underdark ambushers.

Apart from that, yep, I also thought about resistances and resilience, just wanted to hear others' opinion. Furhtermore, I do not think that all PC's have to be so balanced that it would make them somewhat forcedly down- or upgraded. To me, D&D's flavour should really give all that distinction that makes it interesting to them to play. Therefore, it would not always be necessary to give a +2 and a +1 to Ability scores. What if my PC's want to play a fey campaign? Would sprites and pixies still have that minimum of 8 STR? Of course, not! Just a thought . Currently I'm working on a "band of misfits" campaign, where I'd put medusa, yan-ti purebloods, and many others as playable races. Will they be so balanced in stats - definitely not. I already had a pixie in one of my campaigns, and her ability scores were very weird, which was compensated by more spells, based on pixie dust, which was a per-day resource, and so on and so forth.

Cheers, mate and thanks for the opinion.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I'm running a 5E Golarion game. In my game, duergar and dwarves have the exact same stats. The Duergar were originally a clain of dwarves who turned their backs on the dwarven patrons, and took up the worship of Droskar, lord of toil. It twisted the qualities of dwarves into perverse mirrors of themselves. The dwarven love of hearth, home and clan turned into paranoia and xenophobia. Dwarven love of gold and gems to create beautiful works suitable to last the ages turned into base greed. Their proud work ethic became slaving away to mass produce cheap goods to satisfy their dark god. The other dwarf clans view them with a mix of disgust, horror and pity - for there are many races who are not dwarf... Duergar are "un-dwarf".

If you are new, I would just use the player's choice of mountain or hill dwarf as stats. Sunlight Sensitivity is either nigh crippling, or a non-issue in an underdark/primarily dungeon campaign, so consider saying that while other duergar might have it, the PC does not. Same with their psionic abilities. In 1st/2nd edition, the Underdark had strange magical energy running through it. Its what partially prevented the decay of drow items and granted magical abilities to various races. Without exposure, the player would lose them.

I would allow their PC to regain some with a feat as someone else suggested.

Level 1) Psychic Crush (30' range, Int save, d6 psychic damage, unable to take reacts on a failure)
Level 3) Enlarge 1x day (self only)
Level 5) Invisibility 1x day (self only)