D&D 5E MM Firesnake up on Christopher Burdett's Blog

[77IM]

You're moving from evil hatchlings which are incapable of learning right from wrong to human children who clearly are capable of of learning right from wrong.

I think this is a question of alienation or dehumanization. In the real world, declaring someone "evil" (as you did in the example of the serial killer) is wrong. Dehumanizing the enemy is actually taught to soldiers because it makes them less reluctant to pull the trigger. I think that's very morally wrong. Dehumanizing children is even worse (Godwin's Law left as an exercise for the reader).

But in a game we're already OK with dehumanizing adult monsters. You can slay the dragon, or the orcs, or the salamanders, because they are Evil with a capital E and can't be redeemed. They're not human. Is it wrong to pretend that? Should we be offering the dragon a fair trial? Why is it OK to dehumanize adult creatures but not baby creatures?

 

[Mistwell]

There was a time I had not thought of it myself. There was an discussion on GitPG last year that put it best. Once I saw it I couldn't unsee it. Why, why is it ok to kill a child, any child?

I'll try to do the giant Justice.

What makes a Dragon child different from a lion cub, or a bear cub? A full grown adult hunter taking down a lion cub isn't sport, but an Adventurer taking down a Dragon that just hatched?

When you watched the movie Aliens, did you have sympathy even for a millisecond for the eggs she was destroying? I didn't. I don't know anyone who ever has, and I am a vegetarian since 1989.

Alignment matters. Things which are inherently evil and which are born with weapons and immediately are drawn to killing humans, are OK to kill. It's part of self defense, which ethics accepts as a basic principal. Philosophers from Locke to Rousseau, Hobbes to Aquinas, they all agree self-preservation is an overriding criteria for life and liberty.

Scroll to about 5:50 and watch from there...you will not feel any sympathy at all, I assure you.

[video=youtube_share;H649RmR-3Gg]http://youtu.be/H649RmR-3Gg[/video]

 

[Savage Wombat]

Alignment matters. Things which are inherently evil and which are born with weapons and immediately are drawn to killing humans, are OK to kill.

Funny, but apart from the alignment descriptor (and everyone hates that alignment was included in 5e, right?) I don't see anything in the salamander writeup saying anything about "immediately drawn to killing humans".

I don't mind people disagreeing with me on this issue. But I find attempts to dismiss the concept that it's a controversial issue, well, troubling.

 

[Mistwell]

Funny, but apart from the alignment descriptor (and everyone hates that alignment was included in 5e, right?) I don't see anything in the salamander writeup saying anything about "immediately drawn to killing humans".

I don't mind people disagreeing with me on this issue. But I find attempts to dismiss the concept that it's a controversial issue, well, troubling.

First, the alignment descriptor is the thing that tells you it kills indiscriminately, and the fact that they eat meat tells you that they will try and eat humans they see. I do not hate alignment being included in 5e at all, and I don't know why you drew that conclusion or made such a broad, hyperbolic statement about what everyone hates.

Second, I didn't dismiss the concept at all, and I find it again hyperbolic that you grouped me in with dismissiveness simply for seriously responding to the topic with how I view it. I mean damn, I was quoting how philosophers think on the topic, how much more clear can I make it that I took the topic seriously and seriously responded? So, can we cut the hyperbole, and just have a conversation without you telling me how everyone thinks about alignment, and how I think about this topic?

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

You're moving from evil hatchlings which are incapable of learning right from wrong to human children who clearly are capable of of learning right from wrong.

wait... why are dragon hatchlings incapable of learning right from wrong?!?!?!

since when?

I think this is a question of alienation or dehumanization. In the real world, declaring someone "evil" (as you did in the example of the serial killer) is wrong. Dehumanizing the enemy is actually taught to soldiers because it makes them less reluctant to pull the trigger. I think that's very morally wrong. Dehumanizing children is even worse (Godwin's Law left as an exercise for the reader).

wait, you think that calling a serial killer evil is wrong?!?!?!?

But in a game we're already OK with dehumanizing adult monsters. You can slay the dragon, or the orcs, or the salamanders, because they are Evil with a capital E and can't be redeemed. They're not human. Is it wrong to pretend that? Should we be offering the dragon a fair trial? Why is it OK to dehumanize adult creatures but not baby creatures?

I'm not arguing to dehumanize anything... creatures are evil by action not birth...


example:

An orc tribe in the north of the city sends hunters down every winter to trade furs. You don't get to kill them because there skin is green and they have fangs...

A human gang attacks a caravan, and you kill them...

infact, what is your thoughts on the following scenero:

Your PCs are from the town of XXXXX and to the north is the barbaric lands. The barbaric lands are full of 80% orcs, and 10% half orcs and 10% other... the tribes are all unified under the WARLORD SSSarick, an Orc who was at first a slave until she fought her way to the top. Since she has been the leader no orcs have raided south.

Her city was sacked, and her daughter taken by 3 humans and elf and a dwarf. Does the fact that they are PC races (and 3 humans at that) taking the "Princess" of the Orcs change the scenero?

in a game I'm playing that would turn quickly to a rescues mission.

 

[Mistwell]

creatures are evil by action not birth...

Are they? I think some are, particularly in the humanoid groups. But I think a LOT of evil monsters are evil from birth. Sometimes it's directly mentioned in the description, sometimes just implied or contained in the history of the monster throughout the editions. But I think unlike our world, in the world of D&D some things are born inherently evil, and this is a basic assumption of the implied setting. Just like those Aliens in the video I posted above.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

When you watched the movie Aliens, did you have sympathy even for a millisecond for the eggs she was destroying? I didn't. I don't know anyone who ever has, and I am a vegetarian since 1989.

I'm not a vegetarian, I love steak, and burgers... if anything this girl eats way too much meat. I also can't say I had any sympathy for them... but I also have no sympathy for most monsters in movies...

Alignment matters.

is alignment genetic (inborn) or is it a product of your experiences? I don't think I have ever played even at age 8 beliving there was no such thing as a good orc, or a good dragon...

Things which are inherently evil and which are born with weapons and immediately are drawn to killing humans, are OK to kill.

OK, but how do we determine what is and is not drawn to kill humans? Evil humans eat meat and not all evil humans are canabuls.

and what about evil on evil action? If a Lawful Evil Hobgoblin Warlord and a Neutral Evil Kobold Sorcerer both lead forces against the evil mind flayers how do you know who to fight?

It's part of self defense, which ethics accepts as a basic principal. Philosophers from Locke to Rousseau, Hobbes to Aquinas, they all agree self-preservation is an overriding criteria for life and liberty.

So wait according to these guys killing in self defense doesn't require proof of immediate life danger? that is very different here in the USA to claim self defense you have to prove a threat...

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

Are they? I think some are, particularly in the humanoid groups. But I think a LOT of evil monsters are evil from birth. Sometimes it's directly mentioned in the description, sometimes just implied or contained in the history of the monster throughout the editions. But I think unlike our world, in the world of D&D some things are born inherently evil, and this is a basic assumption of the implied setting. Just like those Aliens in the video I posted above.

can you provide a citation for that? The only thing I remember is that stats are generic and individuals may vary... maybe your right but I've just never seen it. I even had a Mul wizard befriend a neutral aligned black dragon back in 2e...

 

[MoutonRustique]

can you provide a citation for that? The only thing I remember is that stats are generic and individuals may vary... maybe your right but I've just never seen it. I even had a Mul wizard befriend a neutral aligned black dragon back in 2e...

It's not really something one could provide a quote for or against. At this level, it's a playstyle choice/preference.

In some games/settings, all creatures are born able to choose their morality and right/wrong is determined by the actions and consequences - like IRL.

In other games, there is Evil. It is not a point of view, it is an objective fact. And some creatures are born to it. In this situation, while some individuals may be able to be saved, the race as whole is still Evil - not because it makes "logical sense" but because it makes "narrative sense". In those situations, killing every single one of that race(I'm avoiding a term that is often loaded on purpose here) is not only, not an evil act, it is a determinedly good act.

Some people just want a place where they can kill monsters with peace of mind - making some creatures Evil is a great way to have that.

 

[MarkB]

This is one of the reasons I dislike D&D's "fantasy racism" take on alignment. Even in an entirely fictional setting, I've never been truly comfortable with the idea of acting out in-character the attitude that it is perfectly okay to kill a sentient being on sight simply because they are 'inherently evil'. Extend that attitude to children and babies, and that level of discomfort goes up by orders of magnitude.

Yet another reason why, if I run my own scenarios in 5e, I'll be going back to Eberron, where orcs can and do live in peace with humans, and dragons are not colour-coded for your convenience.