Struggling with spell lists!

[Primitive Screwhead]

Yup, WEG is my favorite space opera system

What do you mean by 'tightly themed'?
One interpretation would be to have the Spell Path be the equivalent of a Signature Spell with built in scaling. The Path of the Body is an example of this where the spells are all variants on 'Heal Life X'

Another interpretation would be to have the Spell Path revolve around a spell element. The Path of the Sea is an example of this where all the spells are variants on [Action] Water X


My interpretation is that the focus of the spell path is based around a concept. For example the Flame Blade is a melee warrior who uses magic to enhance her offense and defense capabilities through Create, Hex, and a dash of Anti-magic, Charm and Infuse.
The Path of the Quartermaster is about someone whose job it is to manage the camp and focuses on transporting and repairing.

I guess I do tend to create a 'dabbler' kind of list, but like I said earlier the interesting spells usually include 3 to 4 spell lists. I would bet that more than half the fan generated paths will be similar, simply from the viewpoint that a scaling path is less versatile than a dabbler path.

If you want to avoid the dabbler approach I think you would have to clearly state in the rules something like "The spell path has to abide by a theme based on either the tight focus of using up to three spell lists, up to three elements, or up to two actions. You can add one more list/element/action for spells over 10MP, and another for spells over 15MP, etc.." That would take the dabbler aspect out and more tightly focus the themes.

Given that the characters will usually have upwards of 5 spell paths, I don't see this as a problem, altho I would have to go back and revise pretty much all the ones I have made so far

Aside:
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Gaining and swapping spell paths. You mention that Spell Paths can be gained as treasure. So when Mage who has a LOG of 5 finds his 6th Spell Path.. how does that work? Can he swap spell paths after a long rest and meditation, picking 5 of the 6 available?






Typos in the recently posted 'old_rpg_spellpaths.pdf"
Path of the Tree 4MP spell Obstructions reads "planets cause obstruction..."
Path of Shadow 9MP spell Shadow Step reads "you sep into..."
The Deadly Path 6MP spell Infection missing the word 'disease' in the sentence "The proceeds at a normal rate."

 

[Vlagrate]

I've been out of touch with the progress on O.L.D. (read the May document and waiting on the new iteration), so I'm a bit lost with the new magic system.
Traditions: The magic focused careers that give you access to different Secrets.
Secrets: The fundamental knowledge that lets you understand and leverage the universe to work magic. Essentially a prerequisite for learning Spell-Paths with the flavor of stance/approach.
Spell-Paths: A 0 to N list of spells in ascending order, requiring at least N MAG in order to cast. No one can know more Spell-Paths than their LOG.

Points of confusion:
Secrets are knowledge based and can be uncovered through research/treasure, so what stops 2 casters from just pooling knowledge? If Secrets are transmittable, the primary benefit of the casting careers is the free MAG increase (as opposed to the quadratic cost of raising it separately) and whatever career perks they grant.
Not certain what the skills system is like atm, but would characters train Secrets or individual Spell-Paths?
Because of the caps, the max number of spells a character has is capped by MAG x LOG, with only one spell/Spell-Path at any given, which gets into the 3.5 problem of tiered spells. Does that preclude spellpaths that take any shape (Junctions aside) other than a straight line from 0 to N? How the blazes does one actually build Spell-Paths?

 

[Morrus]

Secrets are knowledge based and can be uncovered through research/treasure, so what stops 2 casters from just pooling knowledge?

I expect a cost to master a secret will be attached; XP most likely. Maybe even a check. You discover or buy or whatever it, but it's useless until you master it.

Because of the caps, the max number of spells a character has is capped by MAG x LOG, with only one spell/Spell-Path at any given, which gets into the 3.5 problem of tiered spells.

I'm afraid I don't follow! Why would they only be allowed one spell per spell-path? A starting character is likely to start with MAG x LOG = 16+ spells. A more advanced character might have, say, 10 x 10 = 100 spells or more.

Does that preclude spellpaths that take any shape (Junctions aside) other than a straight line from 0 to N?

I don't really understand that question, either, I'm afraid! Could you clarify what you mean?

How the blazes does one actually build Spell-Paths?

That one I can answer! You use the Elements of Magic chapter.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Does that preclude spellpaths that take any shape (Junctions aside) other than a straight line from 0 to N?

I think I understand this question. If I am right, you are asking if the Spell path has to be a 0 to N list of spells in ascending order or can it be something else.
I would say 'yes'. You could have 'advanced' spell paths of 15 to 40, or paths with gaps like {0,3,6,8,10,14}. Technically you could have a flat path of a bunch of cantrips or X level spells.. but that is not ideal and goes against the concept of a 'path'.

I think that the path's I have posted above stray too far from what they should be, too much dabbling for the good of the system. With a caster being able to have over at least 4 spell paths starting out, I think the spell paths should be constrained somewhat. A couple of my paths are just too good. {Longstrider, I am looking at you!}

 

[Vlagrate]

Whoops, I lost a few words there; it should read: "Because of the caps, the max number of spells a character has is capped by MAG x LOG, with only one spell/Spell-Path at any given MANA COST, which gets into the 3.5 problem of tiered spells." A good example of this is the Path of Body, half of which is the same AID effect with more mana pumped into it. They're different effects, eating up your spell slots but they're just scaled versions of the same thing.

Primitive Screwhead touches on what I mean by Spell-Paths being stuck in a straight line. Whether they go from 0 to N sequentially {0,1,2,3,4,...,N-1,N} or non-sequentially {0,3,6,8,10,14,N}, Spell-Paths are arranged such that there are never 2 spells on the same tier. My question is whether you could have a Spell-Path that advances in any way other than a straight line. Like a Path of the Apprentice, that is shaped like a pyramid, with lots of low level effects, but no effects above, say, 4: {0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,4}. With a 0 to N line, you need to buy a whole separate Spell Path if you want a separate cantrip, so I'm wondering if that's intentional.

On the topic of constructing Spell-Paths (I haven't read Elements of Magic; is it available?) does the EoM chapter have guidelines for how many spells should be in a path or how restrictive you should be with player designed Spell-Paths? As written, with the restriction of one spell per mana level, the system encourages picking up an eclectic mix of useful effects and cobbling them together under a common theme to save on XP (much like 3.P Wilders are encouraged to pick very flexible effects at every level, because having specific use powers is a massive opportunity cost).

Another point of confusion: Are spell lists effectively favored spells, requiring 2 actions to cast instead of a full minute? Can you modify the spells on the fly or are you stuck with them as is, unless you find another Spell-Path that has a tweaked version?

 

[Morrus]

Whoops, I lost a few words there; it should read: "Because of the caps, the max number of spells a character has is capped by MAG x LOG, with only one spell/Spell-Path at any given MANA COST, which gets into the 3.5 problem of tiered spells." A good example of this is the Path of Body, half of which is the same AID effect with more mana pumped into it. They're different effects, eating up your spell slots but they're just scaled versions of the same thing.

That sounds like an issue with interesting paths needing to be developed. I'll be honest, that Body path was done in about 15 seconds!

Primitive Screwhead touches on what I mean by Spell-Paths being stuck in a straight line. Whether they go from 0 to N sequentially {0,1,2,3,4,...,N-1,N} or non-sequentially {0,3,6,8,10,14,N}, Spell-Paths are arranged such that there are never 2 spells on the same tier. My question is whether you could have a Spell-Path that advances in any way other than a straight line. Like a Path of the Apprentice, that is shaped like a pyramid, with lots of low level effects, but no effects above, say, 4: {0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,4}. With a 0 to N line, you need to buy a whole separate Spell Path if you want a separate cantrip, so I'm wondering if that's intentional.

In theory, I don't see why not. Takes some designing, but it sounds viable.

On the topic of constructing Spell-Paths (I haven't read Elements of Magic; is it available?) does the EoM chapter have guidelines for how many spells should be in a path or how restrictive you should be with player designed Spell-Paths?

It's in the May playtest document. The EoM chapter basically lets you design each spell with the correct MP cost for it.

Another point of confusion: Are spell lists effectively favored spells, requiring 2 actions to cast instead of a full minute? Can you modify the spells on the fly or are you stuck with them as is, unless you find another Spell-Path that has a tweaked version?

I haven't gotten that far into the spell path design yet, but I don't have then intention of making them take a minute.

does the EoM chapter have guidelines for how many spells should be in a path or how restrictive you should be with player designed Spell-Paths? As written, with the restriction of one spell per mana level, the system encourages picking up an eclectic mix of useful effects and cobbling them together under a common theme to save on XP (much like 3.P Wilders are encouraged to pick very flexible effects at every level, because having specific use powers is a massive opportunity cost).

It doesn't - it deals with building the individual spells; it predates the spell-path idea. I haven't yet written any guidelines on how to structure a spell-path, but feedback will help with that!

 

[Morrus]

Gaining and swapping spell paths. You mention that Spell Paths can be gained as treasure. So when Mage who has a LOG of 5 finds his 6th Spell Path.. how does that work? Can he swap spell paths after a long rest and meditation, picking 5 of the 6 available?

Secrets, not spell-paths. You learn spell-paths by spending XP.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Secrets, not spell-paths. You learn spell-paths by spending XP.

Check, the question still stands tho. Mage with Log 5 has purchased 6 spell paths..., I have been assuming that spell paths are basically replacements for signature spells in that they are 2 rounds to cast and are 'memorized' after an 8 hour rest.

 

[Morrus]

Check, the question still stands tho. Mage with Log 5 has purchased 6 spell paths..., I have been assuming that spell paths are basically replacements for signature spells in that they are 2 rounds to cast and are 'memorized' after an 8 hour rest.

Not sure yet. We may need to try both in playtesting - a hard limit on total paths known, or just on how many you can memorise at one time.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I would think that a hard limit would be bad, and if you are paying XP for it you won't want to trade out. If you limit how many you can memorize at a time this could lead to the ever-typical storage of 'spell books' or 'Tome' in libraries/hoards and give casters a reason to adventure. Yes, I know spell paths are 'bought' with XP, but if you have to find a Tome first and then spend XP to be able to use it.. this puts spell Tomes on the market/treasure which can be valuable to casters and non-casters alike.
As a caster you can 'create your own' spell path through research or find/steal/buy a Tome, then spend the XP to 'learn' it. Secrets limit which Tomes you can learn. This makes it easier for game design as published modules can put Tome in treasure and not worry about whether the group has a caster as there is a marketable value to it.

Additionally, if there is a hard limit you will want each spell path to be more flexible rather than the 0 to N progressive variety as [MENTION=6783272]Vlagrate[/MENTION] points out.