D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

[DaveMage]

Can we not argue, for the 5000th time, about Pathfinder vs 4e and the OGL and market share and blah blah blah and all that silly stuff? It accomplishes nothing, makes people upset, and isn't the topic anyway.

But... But...

Fine.

 

[Mark CMG]

OGL cost them their market dominance.

The OGL gave them back their market dominance alongside 3.XE when TSR had nearly ended D&D in most respects. Moving away from the OGL, in conjunction with 4E, seemingly lost them that dominance again.

From a business perspective, WotC would be insane to make another OGL game.

The OGL exists and isn't going away. Not returning to the OGL makes their reassertion for dominance more difficult. Not returning to the OGL leaves market dominance up for grabs, IMO.

 

[Celtavian]

Can we not argue, for the 5000th time, about Pathfinder vs 4e and the OGL and market share and blah blah blah and all that silly stuff? It accomplishes nothing, makes people upset, and isn't the topic anyway.

I thought it was on topic. The answer being that D&D will never be OGL again. I think they'll use limited licensing costing anyone that wants to produce something for D&D a royalty fee unless they pay them to produce something for D&D like modules.

 

[Celtavian]

The OGL gave them back their market dominance alongside 3.XE when TSR had nearly ended D&D in most respects. Moving away from the OGL, in conjunction with 4E, seemingly lost them that dominance again.





The OGL exists and isn't going away. Not returning to the OGL makes their reassertion for dominance more difficult. Not returning to the OGL leaves market dominance up for grabs, IMO.

I don't think that is how WotC and Hasbro sees it.

 

[Mark CMG]

I don't think that is how WotC and Hasbro sees it.

I don't doubt that they saw things as you say when they released 4E and I think you might be right that they still have the same feelings on the matter now. I'm guessing the people at Paizo are pleased that you are probably correct.

 

[Celtavian]

I don't doubt that they saw things as you say when they released 4E and I think you might be right that they still have the same feelings on the matter now. I'm guessing the people at Paizo are pleased that you are probably correct.

I think Ryan Dancey is a once every three or four decades type of mind. He had a real vision for the pen and paper RPG. I doubt we'll see anyone like him anytime soon. He not only had the creative mind for the pen and paper RPG, but a mind for the business. Most of the time the pen and paper RPG industry has tons of great creative people. Often creative people lack creativity when it comes to the business model and the discipline to ensure profitability. Dancey had both. You have to give Ryan Dancey his due. He is the best business mind the RPG industry has ever seen. I think his success in the industry makes that indisputable. He knew how to make money, while keeping the creative element of the pen and paper RPG intact. It's hard to compete against someone like Dancey.

 

[Mark CMG]

You have to give Ryan Dancey his due.

This much I agree with. But let's face it, the OGL already exists. They no longer necessarily need a creative business mind to strike out in a new direction by co-opting the Open Licensing business model and grafting onto the RPG industry. What they might need is someone who can recognize that they had a load of success by introducing the OGL and that success crumbled, at least in part, when they moved away from the OGL while someone else who was using the OGL gained a large portion of a market that was long considered in D&D's pocket.

Of course, the fear now must be that WotC has trained most of the talent that now sits in the chairs at Paizo and even going back to the OGL is no guaranteed remedy.

Nothing short of a fully open license will get the reception needed to give it a real chance at success, as I think the 4E GSL proved. While I think it is quite possible they have already scuttled their boat by not using the OGL while designing the new system (availing themselves of tons of OGC and OGC solutions to the problems that came up during playtesting) and not coming right out of the gate with as many industry oars as possible pulling in the direction they chose, they are quickly losing their chance to right the ship.

Plus, they're being coy by picking and choosing a partner here and there and not whipping up the market into a frenzy. I hope WotC and anyone putting out a 5E supplement has great success but my guess is that we'll see too little of it to stem the tide away from definitive D&D dominance.

 

[Celtavian]

This much I agree with. But let's face it, the OGL already exists. They no longer necessarily need a creative business mind to strike out in a new direction by co-opting the Open Licensing business model and grafting onto the RPG industry. What they might need is someone who can recognize that they had a load of success by introducing the OGL and that success crumbled, at least in part, when they moved away from the OGL while someone else who was using the OGL gained a large portion of a market that was long considered in D&D's pocket.

Of course, the fear now must be that WotC has trained most of the talent that now sits in the chairs at Paizo and even going back to the OGL is no guaranteed remedy.

Nothing short of a fully open license will get the reception needed to give it a real chance at success, as I think the 4E GSL proved. While I think it is quite possible they have already scuttled their boat by not using the OGL while designing the new system (availing themselves of tons of OGC and OGC solutions to the problems that came up during playtesting) and not coming right out of the gate with as many industry oars as possible pulling in the direction they chose, they are quickly losing their chance to right the ship.

Plus, they're being coy by picking and choosing a partner here and there and not whipping up the market into a frenzy. I hope WotC and anyone putting out a 5E supplement has great success but my guess is that we'll see too little of it to stem the tide away from definitive D&D dominance.

I'm back from Pathfinder giving the new edition a try because Pathfinder has reached the point of excessive complexity and power creep. Seems to happen with all editions.

But one thing I'm skeptical that WotC can do is match Paizo's adventures. I'll probably still convert APs to 5E because they seem far superior to what WotC has produced. You can read a Paizo AP for fun and enjoy it. They usually provide a nice framework with maps for a great adventure.

If 5E is to succeed, it needs great adventures people want to play. A rule set is nothing without amazing adventures. Kingmaker, Rise of the Runelords, and Carrion Crown were a blast. I can't remember the last time WotC didn't put out some standard, boring mixed creature dungeon crawl lacking a cohesive theme and a strong story. Back in The Golden Era of D&D, the adventures were memorable. I bet any old school D&D player could recite their favorite modules off the top of their head. White Plume Mountain, Slavelords Series, Against the Giants, and Descent. There were so many great adventures in the early years that kept you wanting to play the game. That is the model Paizo used to get people going. Tons and tons of options for adventures. Usually well designed with great stories that stoked a DM's imagination.

That's what I want to see with 5E. I'd love to see WotC/D&D return to producing highly memorable adventures that make you want to play the game. That was one thing the OGL did allow for. Some of the most memorable adventures from the D&D 3E era were produced by outside companies such as Necromancer Games' Rappan Athuk. The only memorable WotC Module from 3E for my group was City of the Spider Queen. I don't even remember the others. I think we mostly made up our own stuff or converted older module material from 2 and 1E.

I hope they do a much better job of providing adventuring material this time around. Or I'll be getting modules from Paizo and converting them to 5E.

 

[Mark CMG]

(. . .) excessive complexity and power creep. Seems to happen with all editions.

No doubt. Oddly, I think because the 5E Basic Rules preceded the DMG, it is going to appear to some that it is coming early with 5E.

If 5E is to succeed, it needs great adventures people want to play.

(. . .)

I'd love to see WotC/D&D return to producing highly memorable adventures that make you want to play the game. That was one thing the OGL did allow for. Some of the most memorable adventures from the D&D 3E era were produced by outside companies (. . .)

We agree here but have come to different conclusions about what will fix this problem.

The only memorable WotC Module from 3E for my group was City of the Spider Queen.

I enjoyed much of The Red Hand of Doom.

 

[Nellisir]

I thought it was on topic. The answer being that D&D will never be OGL again. I think they'll use limited licensing costing anyone that wants to produce something for D&D a royalty fee unless they pay them to produce something for D&D like modules.

It's arguably on topic. Your exact points have also been brought up and argued several times in this thread alone. -I- don't care if you post them again, but it's not a new insight.