D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

pemerton

Legend
There is no sense of accomplishment in carrying out a plan that was set up for you, where there is a sense of accomplishment in making the best of what you have.
But we are talking about how to determine what it is that the PCs have.

If the GM says "No, the NPC is clean-shaven" then the challenge for the players hasn't increased. It hasn't become harder for them to implement a plan. They just have to spend time coming up with a new plan. Rather than seeing whether or not the impersonation plan can succeed, the table will spend time finding out whether some other plan, that rests on some other element of the fiction, succeeds.

the story can seem contrived and pointless when it's influenced by events outside of the narrative
As I asked, do these same players feel that the story is contrived when the plot-hook patron approaches their PCs without the GM rolling for a reaction check first?
 

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LostSoul

Adventurer
It makes absolutely no difference to the integrity of the game world whether you randomly roll the presence of that beard or declare it's presence or absence based on anything else- player wishes, the phase of the moon, whatever. None of this matters the slightest whit to the game world.

One reason I'd make a random roll to see if the NPC was bearded (1-3 no, 4-6 yes) is because it helps to remove my bias from the game. Beards aren't a big source of bias for me, but a while back I realized that most of the NPCs I was putting into the game were men. Now I roll randomly for sex and I think it's helped out my game.

I wouldn't always roll - I may know that, in this town, there's a taboo against being clean-shaven (or the opposite). Well, I might roll 1d6 with a 6 indicating clean-shaven (and then come up with some kind of reason why this guy has no beard).

I do recall a moment where a PC ranger came across some treasure while hunting/trapping in the wilderness - he found the treasure with a "stunning success" on the foraging roll. I said he found a rabbit warren and, inside that warren they had some gems. Both the player and I wondered what the rabbits were doing with gems; I said that on a 6 on 1d6 the rabbits could talk. I don't remember clearly, but I think the player may have suggested something like that.

As you can see there is still some bias there (I had the rabbits talk instead of having them pets of a ranger, druid, or some other NPC/monster), but it feels like a different kind of bias, though I'm not sure what the difference is.

But I don't follow your point under the "players" interpretation either, because in this context the only player behaviour is asking the question "Does the NPC have a beard?" Answering yes to that question is not "being biased by player behaviour". It is responding affirmatively rather than negatively to a question from a player.

I think that the difference here is that, when a player gets an idea for a plan, the cards always seem to fall into place for them. The player may be asking only because they are thinking about a plan, not simply gathering more information about the game world. Randomly rolling for these minor things can give the player a sense of internal game-world consistency - things don't always fall into place for them.

By saying no, what the GM in effect does is shift the focus of play away from what the player wanted - namely, finding out whether or not the plan with the disguise works - to making the players come up with another plan. I don't see how this helps the game. (Unless you're playing Tomb of Horrors style, in which the point of the game is for the players to accommodate their plan to the pre-written backstory.) And I don't see how the player's perception of the gameworld is going to be altered, and destroyed, by having his/her hope satisfied. The player clearly wants the gameworld to be a certain way. And s/he knows that the GM has the power to make it that way, and (unless s/he is very confused about the difference between reality and authored fictions) s/he also knows that it is by means of the exercise of that power that it will or won't be made that way.

Two points:

1. A lot of D&D can be summed up as what you describe as "Tomb of Horrors" play. Without intricate backstory, which would be very difficult to come up with for everything the PCs might encounter, the DM needs another way to make impartial judgements. That's why I use random rolls (a simple 1d6 roll works well most of the time, I find).

2. Rolling randomly takes the responsibility off of the DM (to a point - the DM still has to determine when to roll and how to assign the odds). Doing so creates a less adversarial/mother-may-I game, I think.

Do these same players get upset when the GM decides that the patron walks into the inn and asks their PCs to go on the MacGuffin-fetching mission without first rolling a reaction check to find out whether or not the patron likes the look of the PCs?

Deciding without a random check that the patron hires the PCs and not some NPCs, or deciding that its the PCs who are walking past the plot-hook event rather than rolling for that on a table, seem to me to be far bigger instances of the gameworld reality shaping itself to external considerations, than deciding that an NPC has a beard because a player is hoping so. Yet they are the stock-in-trade of every GM everywhere since time immemorial. No one's game has the PC's live boring, uneventful, poverty-ridden lives simply because random content generation gave all the plot hooks to the NPCs!

:) This is the kind of thing I would do. There are features of my game that mitigate this, though. The game world has enough adventure in it that the PCs don't need to wait for NPCs to offer quests; the PCs are free to react to the NPC's actions in any way they want (say, following an NPC adventuring party them to the dungeon entrance and jumping them when and if they come out); a zero-sum power struggle between characters (NPC - NPC and NPC - PC) in the game world; and an XP system that rewards player-driven goals.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
And if GM whim was fine for writing the script, and fine for making it up on the fly, it is hard for me to see how changing the script on the fly crosses some notional line of fictional integrity. (I can see that it could violate gameplay integrity, if the script is pre-written and the players are meant to be gaming the script, as in a module like Tomb of Horrors. But that's not the sort of gameplay that was being discussed in the series of posts that have led up to this one.)
For me, it's that the crux of playing the game is solving problems. You might be solving those problems by killing things or by coming up with non-combat solutions. The entire point of the game, IMHO, is that players use the information they have in order to come up with solutions. Changing the information based on a solution is no longer solving anything. It's just reading out loud a thought that occurred to a player.

For instance, say the PCs need to get up to a window that's 2 stories up. I would like them to either have a chance of falling by climbing the wall or using up a resource of some sort to teleport to the window, or they are going to need to do some roleplaying and convince someone to give them a ladder or something. If one of the players says "Is there a box or something nearby I can stand on?" I COULD answer yes, because they obviously have come up with an idea to build a crude set of stairs. However, they haven't really solved the problem they were given. They instead solved a different problem...the problem of what to do if the situation was the same but there was a bunch of boxes sitting there.

Which kind of ties back into the reason for me originally making this post. I believe it is the responsibility of the players to solve the problems given to them by the DM. The dice shouldn't do it for them, nor should just coming up with any old idea. Instead, GOOD ideas that fit within the parameters the DM has given you should be rewarded. Other ones should be dismissed as not being appropriate for the situation at hand.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Personally, I make the roll for the beard behind the screen and the beard is there if I hadn't said one way or another prior to the roll. The players only have actual control over their characters. The GM takes the actions of players, through their characters, and explains the results of that interaction with the setting within the rules system. But I'm never going to risk the game coming to a screeching halt because I stood up for GMs' Rights over a beard. The principle is flawed.
 


Hussar

Legend
Personally, I make the roll for the beard behind the screen and the beard is there if I hadn't said one way or another prior to the roll. The players only have actual control over their characters. The GM takes the actions of players, through their characters, and explains the results of that interaction with the setting within the rules system. But I'm never going to risk the game coming to a screeching halt because I stood up for GMs' Rights over a beard. The principle is flawed.

This whole discussion is why I adore mechanics like Action Points or Bennies, or whatever, that give minor editorial control to the players. Does the NPC have a beard? It hasn't been established yet? Let the players spend some game resource and poof, the guy has a beard. Just resolves all this sort of thing so much more satisfactorily for me.

I hate it when the group comes up with a plan, but the DM wants to "add difficulty" so he just starts obstructing the players by saying no. It's often not about "the integrity of the setting" but rather, "I want to make the players work for their success, so, I'll just make this more difficult, just to make it more difficult". I find it so frustrating when DM's do this.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
This whole discussion is why I adore mechanics like Action Points or Bennies, or whatever, that give minor editorial control to the players. Does the NPC have a beard? It hasn't been established yet? Let the players spend some game resource and poof, the guy has a beard. Just resolves all this sort of thing so much more satisfactorily for me.

I hate it when the group comes up with a plan, but the DM wants to "add difficulty" so he just starts obstructing the players by saying no. It's often not about "the integrity of the setting" but rather, "I want to make the players work for their success, so, I'll just make this more difficult, just to make it more difficult". I find it so frustrating when DM's do this.

I don't tend to allow mechanics for the players that can change the world, though I don't think it damages the GM/Player paradigm if the Player can make changes for the character. It's a fine distinction but a "Bennie" that allows a player to say definitively that a ladder happens to be propped up next to the wall he wishes to scale is akin to a magic item available on the whim of the player. I feel that throws off the paradigm. However, allowing for a number of re-rolls by the players feels less egregious to that same paradigm.

One of the reasons I find the Advantage / Disadvantage system to be one of the better innovations of 5E (and, yes, I understand it may well be grafted and renamed from other game systems). It allows for players, through their characters, to proactively seek those "Bennies" in-game, based on choices they make and actions they take. Need a ladder? Go find one, or make one, or get a rope, etc. Want to appear as the non-bearded wizard? Shave (as someone above suggested) or use an illusion spell, etc.

As said, I'm not going to stall out a game if someone asks me if some NPC is bearded and I haven't said one way or another prior to the question. On the other hand, it's not the players' purview to create the world, particularly not in the moment with an eye toward creating an immediate and definite advantage to their own success. Tell me what the characters are doing and I, as GM, will adjudicate the the results and explain the consequences to the characters' actions.
 


Dausuul

Legend
This topic was brought up a while ago in another thread and I've been considering it more lately. Rather than derail that thread, I decided to create a new one.

Before I make my reply to GMforPowergamers, I'll repost my post:
While I have little patience with players expecting the magic d20 to solve all their problems, in this case I sympathize with the player's frustration. The second scenario in particular is really obnoxious: Here, have a puzzle you can't solve until you give up and go do something else. Oh, and if you do come up with a really clever way to solve it before you're supposed to? You die. I'd be complaining too.

The first scenario isn't as bad, but the NPC coming along to provide the solution is just--ugh. Typical poorly designed puzzle scenario. If you're going to put a puzzle in your adventure, you need to plan for what happens if the PCs don't figure it out, and having somebody else figure it out for them makes the whole thing feel like a waste. Why spend all that time noodling over the problem if you were just going to get handed the answer anyway?

As far as mental stats and rolling to figure stuff out goes, I prefer to house-rule (if you'd call this a house rule) that Intelligence represents a PC's knowledge and book-learning; Wisdom represents a PC's perceptiveness; Charisma represents a PC's personal charm and poise. High Int doesn't mean you're super-smart, it just means you've read a lot of books and studied a lot of things. That means you have a better chance on your rolls to know stuff. But when you're trying to come up with clever plans, high Int won't help you (except by providing useful information) and low Int won't hurt you. Likewise, high Cha will ensure that you deliver a persuasive argument in an effective way, but you still have to come up with the argument yourself.
 
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This whole discussion is why I adore mechanics like Action Points or Bennies, or whatever, that give minor editorial control to the players. Does the NPC have a beard? It hasn't been established yet? Let the players spend some game resource and poof, the guy has a beard. Just resolves all this sort of thing so much more satisfactorily for me.

I hate it when the group comes up with a plan, but the DM wants to "add difficulty" so he just starts obstructing the players by saying no. It's often not about "the integrity of the setting" but rather, "I want to make the players work for their success, so, I'll just make this more difficult, just to make it more difficult". I find it so frustrating when DM's do this.

My main problem with bennies that players can "earn" is that the whole session becomes one of competing performances for these bennies. This is why I haven't really been using inspiration.
 

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