D&D 5E Uncanny Dodge (Rogue)

[Celtavian]

I think its' odd that folks want to take a relatively low, but pretty powerful ability (which essentially doubles a Rogue's HP in melee) and expand it to fit any situation that could possibly be construed to be an attack.

In my game, if there's a roll to attack, they'll get the Uncanny Dodge.

That's a gross exaggeration of Uncanny Dodge. It does nothing close to doubling hit points. It is one attack that you reduce to half damage. Not an attack from each creature. Not all attacks from one creature. One attack. It is an ok, rather weak ability that may save some hit point damage on occasion if you don't have anything else to use your reaction for like an AoO for a second sneak attack or a shield spell.


I can think of few highly damaging spells that use an attack roll. Disintegrate is the biggest damage single target spell and Uncanny Dodge doesn't work against it. Even against scorching ray it would work only against a single 2d6 damage attack. It will be somewhat useful against creatures with a high damage attack like a Purple Worm. It's not completely useless. Definitely not a particularly powerful ability. I guess for a 2nd or 3rd level ability, it shouldn't be.

 

[Dausuul]

After reading the whole thread instead of just the first couple posts...

On the subject of "attack," there are two ways to view it. One is that an attack is anything involving an attack roll. This is clear and well-defined. The other way to view it is that an attack is something which involves an attempt to cause harm. That's the colloquial meaning of the term, but it's pretty fuzzy. Suppose a monster is surrounded by a damaging aura, does that constitute an attack? What if the monster moves close to you in an effort to put you inside the aura? What if the monster has to make an effort to "switch on" the aura, is it an attack when it does that? If so, does the aura stop constituting an attack in subsequent rounds?

For Uncanny Dodge, I favor the first definition: An attack roll is required. I'm fairly sure that was the design intent. UD is not an all-purpose defense--you can't Uncanny Dodge a cloudkill spell--but rather a survival technique for rogues going after big targets. It gives you a bit of an edge when your Sneak Attack fails to put down the ogre and the ogre spins around to whack you.

For invisibility, I'd go with the second definition, and adjudicate on the fly. A breath weapon should break invisibility, even though it isn't a spell and doesn't require an attack roll.

 

[Celtavian]

After reading the whole thread instead of just the first couple posts...

On the subject of "attack," there are two ways to view it. One is that an attack is anything involving an attack roll. This is clear and well-defined. The other way to view it is that an attack is something which involves an attempt to cause harm. That's the colloquial meaning of the term, but it's pretty fuzzy. Suppose a monster is surrounded by a damaging aura, does that constitute an attack? What if the monster moves close to you in an effort to put you inside the aura? What if the monster has to make an effort to "switch on" the aura, is it an attack when it does that? If so, does the aura stop constituting an attack in subsequent rounds?

For Uncanny Dodge, I favor the first definition: An attack roll is required. I'm fairly sure that was the design intent. UD is not an all-purpose defense--you can't Uncanny Dodge a cloudkill spell--but rather a survival technique for rogues going after big targets. It gives you a bit of an edge when your Sneak Attack fails to put down the ogre and the ogre spins around to whack you.

For invisibility, I'd go with the second definition, and adjudicate on the fly. A breath weapon should break invisibility, even though it isn't a spell and doesn't require an attack roll.

It is kind of cool that a dragon can breathe and stay invis.

 

[Uller]

Right Dasuul. I disagree but i think your post represents a very healthy way of DMing. The rules are a guide but the DM has to think about the intent of the rules because these sort of holes always come up and he has to think about his table. At some tables players maybe expert tacticians and if you give them too liberal a definition of he rules they'll run roughshod. On the oherhand just because a PC may be an expert tactician doesnt mean a player is and giving them a little more leeway might give them a chance against tougher foes. My players tend to fall into the latter camp so I like cutting them a break.

 

[Celtavian]

I wish they had made disintegrate require an attack roll. I get why they didn't do it. They seem to be making the design choice that a spell either requires an attack roll or a save, not usually both. So they chose to make disintegrate save only. Screws the rogue bad as disintegrate will hammer him.

I can live with it. Evasion is pretty powerful. An occasional half-damage hit from Uncanny Dodge is a nice additional option. Some of the higher level stuff does hit very hard. Shield will work better against low level multiple attackers. I plan to get Sentinel, so I can sneak attack more than once per round. That will take my reaction quite a bit.

 

[Chocolategravy]

A dragon beating its wings to fly around is obviously not an attack. A dragon beating its wings to hit opponents with them and do damage to them obviously is an attack.

It doesn't hit them with it's wings. That would be a weapon attack and have an attack roll like tail attack.

 

[guachi]

It's true there are certain spell effects that neither make attack rolls nor impose saving throws but still inflict damage (like Magic Missile). In order to keep things simple at my table, I'd keep to my prior statement that if there is no attack roll there can't be an Uncanny Dodge. Players may not like it, but it is consistent. It also prevents parsing the English language and gets the table back to killing stuff and role-playing.

Also, Celtavian, Mike Mearls has said you can only sneak attack once and on your turn. So you could use reaction attack from Sentinel for a sneak attack, but only if the reaction was on your turn.

The text from his tweets, which aren't official as only Mr. Crawford's rulings are: believe sneak attack is usable only on the rogue's turn and intent would be to avoid stacking with multiple attacks via multiple classing

 

[Uller]

Okay...just because I enjoy the mental exercise of all of this...

Does Evasion work on Chain Lightning? Why or why not?

Chain Lightning: You create a bolt of lightning that arcs toward a target of
your choice that you can see within range. Three bolts
then leap from that target to as many as three other
targets, each of which must be within 30 feet of the first
target. A target can be a creature or an object and can
be targeted by only one of the bolts.
A target must make a Dexterity saving throw. The
target takes 10d8 lightning damage on a failed save, or
half as much damage on a successful one.

Evasion: Beginning at 7th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the
way of certain area effects, such as a red dragon’s fiery
breath or an ice storm spell. When you are subjected
to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving
throw to take only half damage, you instead take no
damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only
half damage if you fail.

 

[hawkeyefan]

If that is the case, that makes Uncanny Dodge rather weak. I guess it is only a low level ability. Half-damage from an attack roll attack is very, very weak. Most single attacks don't do much damage. Higher level creatures with strong attacks that do a lot of damage have multi-attack. I guess it would be nice against a crit from a creature with a strong attack. Otherwise, not a very good ability at all. Too much in this game does its damage with no attack roll and a save other than Dex. Most of the time those are the worst attacks in the game. I was hoping Uncanny Dodge would be something special in 5e.

I actually think it is a pretty awesome ability. It's only weak in comparison to the more liberal interpretation. Half damage from any single attack per round? Rogues are mobile, so the idea is that they don't get hit that often. Being able to reduce a hit per round by half is solid.

So by this logic a dragon's wing attack (which as I pointed out has the word "attack" right there in the name) is not an attack, can't be dodged and doesn't break invisibility.

Nope. If one of my players tried to argue that his action which was clearly intended to harm an enemy was not an attack because it didnt require an attack roll in order to remain invisible I'd just laugh.

If I said any time you come across an animal covered with fur you are looking at a mammal that would be a true statement, right? But there are mammals that are not covered with fur. So...that statement about attacks and attack rolls is a useful guideline but is not definitive.

I think there are more statements that support the attack rolls only interpretation. Ultimately, you do whatever is best for your game and players.

I think therein lies the fundamental misunderstanding of the effectiveness of uncanny dodge. It doesnt double your hp. It's a reaction. Lvl 5+ parties are routinely fighting foes that get more than one attack or fighting larger numbers of weak foes. The first time it was used at our table the rogue's player thought she could just use it over and over and put herself in a bad spot thinking she could just dodge to stay alive. She dodged he first hit and then I had to explain to her that she couldn't use it again until her next turn. The next hit was a crit. The third hit put her down. If someone uses it to save a few hp on an attack that allows a dex save so what? Against any intelligent foe they just wasted it because the next attack will hurt worse. That is why I am so for the rogue being able to use this on any damaging attack...I want the rogue to have meaningful tactical choices. (Plus I just dont buy gamist arguments when they get way down in the weeds to the point where folks are arguing over the meaning of he words attack and hit).

Take Magic Missile. It specifically says the target is "hit" by the missiles so I would allow dodge against one missile. But in all likelihood the caster is not alone and if his allies are smart they will realize the rogue is now at a tactical (but temporary) disadvantage and will press the attack...all to save what? 1 or 2 hp? But if the rogue is low on hp that choice might make a big difference. Why would I want to deny my player that choice over a ridiculous definition of the word "attack"?

I would argue that deciding to use Uncanny Dodge on any given attack instead of saving it for a devastating hit later in the round or using an opportunity attack instead is an example of the rogue making meaningful tactical decisions.

Your example kind of proves the point. Unless the rogue is at death's door, he'd be foolish to use UD on the single magic missile hit. Instead, he should save it against the possibility that the wizard's barbarian henchman decides to attack him later in the round. Perhaps knowing that the rogue has UD still to play, the barbarian attacks another party member.

I don't really see how the idea that many foes have multiple attacks is an argument in favor of either interpretation since either way it can still only be used as a reaction, and so only once per round.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Okay...just because I enjoy the mental exercise of all of this...

Does Evasion work on Chain Lightning? Why or why not?

Chain Lightning: You create a bolt of lightning that arcs toward a target of
your choice that you can see within range. Three bolts
then leap from that target to as many as three other
targets, each of which must be within 30 feet of the first
target. A target can be a creature or an object and can
be targeted by only one of the bolts.
A target must make a Dexterity saving throw. The
target takes 10d8 lightning damage on a failed save, or
half as much damage on a successful one.

Evasion: Beginning at 7th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the
way of certain area effects, such as a red dragon’s fiery
breath or an ice storm spell. When you are subjected
to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving
throw to take only half damage, you instead take no
damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only
half damage if you fail.

Evasion, yes. Uncanny dodge, I would say no.

It's a Dex save, so it is exactly what Evasion is for.