D&D 5E DMG Preview: The Multiverse

AmerginLiath

Adventurer
The art isn't accurate to canon, but it is hardly a fail. I love it! In fact, it's now my officially favorite picture of Sigil yet! The wizard is quite obviously standing on a hilly part of the ground near the base of the spire. The spire itself looks "accurate", but Sigil is too close to the ground and looms too large over our adventurers . . . canonically speaking. As of now, officially in my own campaign, the torus of Sigil moves up and down the spire randomly. No one ever actually sees it move, but each time they approach the spire the city is seemingly at a different elevation. And, in my campaign, the spire CAN be seen from within the city, why not?

Love. It.

*shrugs* It's an infinite plane within finite boundaries, not corresponding to the geometry of the Prime Material Plane. The fact that one can ride to gateways "on the boundary" at all shows that the Outlands doesn't follow the same rules of constancy of space as we're used to – in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if, as the 'hub' of the weight of the Outer Planes, there was something akin to gravitational lensing and folding of space going on all the time and rendering visual perspective outside of Sigil itself wholly unreliable.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Parmandur

Book-Friend
These are just genre terms. And while genre differences are important, they are subjective and fuzzy for both game world and fiction. Nothing has really changed here, we are just seeing all of our favorite settings dropped into three very large boxes. Boxes that overlap and that are even seen differently by different observers!


Well, yes, they are obviously generic terms. But that they decided to categorize each setting in that fashion makes me curious, wondering if they have advice in the book on how to fine tune the genre of your campaign.
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
I think you might be reading a little too much into this.

Don't ruin this for me, Dragonhelm! :)

In my mind, WotC simply referenced the most well-known era of Dragonlance - the War of the Lance. A lot of people gave up after Dragons of Summer Flame.

Gave up, or were abandoned. What /actually/ happens at the end of Summer Flame makes no sense within the setting canon. It's ludicrous. /Everything/ that comes after is a travesty. Honestly, I too wish the setting could move forward rather than start over -- I hate reboots. But I don't see how you spackle the hole in this drywall.

I enjoy all of Dragonlance, then again I started reading all of them right around 2000. I see that a lot of people really hate the children stories and onwards, and I don't really see why honestly. I want the stories to continue. I want to know what happened with the staff of magius. I'm happy that 5e may be the jumpstart that the setting needed.

If you want my personal reason, it's because Mina is the most thinly veiled, phoned-in, taking-out-someone-else's-garbage wrecking ball in all of fantasy fiction. Nothing affects her, nothing can stand in her way, she single-handedly kills or destroys everything of prominence in the setting, and in the end she is exonerated of any responsibility for her extensive crimes and rewarded. I expect to see character arcs like that self-published on the Kindle store.

I suspect everyone involved at the creative level in that train wreck "has an idea" for a setting reboot. I know I would.

I mean no disrespect to the authors -- they made bad lemonade from spoiled lemons. I've never stopped reading Weis or Hickman in other settings and have never found them as wanting as they were in the War of Souls trilogy. I blame the corporate interference that was originally responsible for the Fifth Age. The War of Souls is just an abortive attempt to get back to baseline. Alien dragons indeed.

In short: Dragonlance /should/ move forward. But the Age of Mortals was a /mistake/. I have respect for people who own up to mistakes.

No they haven't. I fail to see any meaningful difference between Sigil being a city on the inside of a ring and Sigil being a city on the inside of a torus. A "ring" is a much easier concept for folks to grasp than a "torus", and the difference is minimal anyway.

By all means, coddle the stupid. Don't let me stop you.

These are just genre terms. And while genre differences are important, they are subjective and fuzzy for both game world and fiction. Nothing has really changed here, we are just seeing all of our favorite settings dropped into three very large boxes. Boxes that overlap and that are even seen differently by different observers!

Agreed, actually. It's pretty meaningless. I mean, I get that the gods are all up ons in Dragonlance fiction, but frankly in my experience with Forgotten Realms novels they read exactly the same way. Overall, Krynn seems like the grittier setting, with arcane magic either locked down by an authoritarian body or in an ongoing discovery process, divine magic on a perpetual rebound, and dragons that are so populous that they're really just giant predators rather than campaign set pieces.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
By all means, coddle the stupid. Don't let me stop you.

Now you're just being a jackass.

Explain to me, oh wise one with the genius-level intellect, the actual practical difference between the inside of an open torus and the inside of a ring, and why that difference should matter to me in my fantasy games.

Especially since Sigil has never actually been a true torus (closed), but is open on the inside of the ring. Keep on keeping on with your superiority complex there and insist on the term "torus". The rest of us troglodytes will just have to muddle on best we can with the "dumbed down" term "ring". Jeesh.
 


Dragonhelm

Knight of Solamnia
Don't ruin this for me, Dragonhelm! :)

LOL!

Gave up, or were abandoned. What /actually/ happens at the end of Summer Flame makes no sense within the setting canon. It's ludicrous. /Everything/ that comes after is a travesty. Honestly, I too wish the setting could move forward rather than start over -- I hate reboots. But I don't see how you spackle the hole in this drywall.

Summer Flame was originally meant to be a trilogy, but the Powers That Be (with the Finances That Were) of the time told Weis and Hickman that it was going to be just one novel instead. In my mind, Summer Flame was written as an ending to the series.

If you want my personal reason, it's because Mina is the most thinly veiled, phoned-in, taking-out-someone-else's-garbage wrecking ball in all of fantasy fiction. Nothing affects her, nothing can stand in her way, she single-handedly kills or destroys everything of prominence in the setting, and in the end she is exonerated of any responsibility for her extensive crimes and rewarded. I expect to see character arcs like that self-published on the Kindle store.

I suspect everyone involved at the creative level in that train wreck "has an idea" for a setting reboot. I know I would.

I mean no disrespect to the authors -- they made bad lemonade from spoiled lemons. I've never stopped reading Weis or Hickman in other settings and have never found them as wanting as they were in the War of Souls trilogy. I blame the corporate interference that was originally responsible for the Fifth Age. The War of Souls is just an abortive attempt to get back to baseline. Alien dragons indeed.

In short: Dragonlance /should/ move forward. But the Age of Mortals was a /mistake/. I have respect for people who own up to mistakes.


There was a lot of heavy editorial control over the Fifth Age era of Dragonlance. It was a time when novel and game lines were not talking. Poor Jean Rabe gets far too much blame for this era when she was just doing work for hire. She's a really nice lady.

For those who didn't like the post-Summer Flame changes, I highly recommend checking out Legends of the Twins. There are six alternate timelines in there, three of which I wrote. One of them is called the Age of Dragons, and is an alternate timeline where Takhisis doesn't steal the world. In other words, "What if the Fifth Age didn't happen?" It's set up to have a lot of political tension through a Cold War, but you can ignore that part and just play a regular Dragonlance game if you want. If I was to run a Dragonlance game at this point, it would be in this timeline, with a few modifications to allow for some Fifth Age-isms (i.e. the Legion of Steel, ambient magic).

A friend of mine from Dragonlance circles was once had the opportunity to tour WotC shortly after they bought out D&D. He was asked if he liked 4th Age Dragonlance or 5th Age. I think his response was that he liked Dragonlance. So even the company saw the two eras as separate entities.

The War of Souls and 3.5 run of Dragonlance books were meant to bring a split fanbase back together, while offering something new. I think, overall, a good job was done. The one thing I disagree with is that the novels seemed to focus on empire-building rather than focusing on a group (or a few groups) of companions who were like family to each other. What makes Chronicles so great is that sense of family.

Of course, in my mind, the 3.5 run of Dragonlance books under MWP is the golden age of Dragonlance gaming. I may be biased, of course! ;)

The DMG says very specifically to make the world as you wish. You can play in any era or shape the setting to whatever you wish. Dragonlance has much to offer, as do all the settings.
 

aramis erak

Legend
Explain to me, oh wise one with the genius-level intellect, the actual practical difference between the inside of an open torus and the inside of a ring, and why that difference should matter to me in my fantasy games.

Especially since Sigil has never actually been a true torus (closed), but is open on the inside of the ring. Keep on keeping on with your superiority complex there and insist on the term "torus". The rest of us troglodytes will just have to muddle on best we can with the "dumbed down" term "ring". Jeesh.

The inside of a torus is a doubly curved surface; the inside of a ring is a singly curved surface.

To make this clearer... if you are facing so that the upward curve is in front of you, on a torus, the space to your left and right is a downward curve, while on a ring, left and right are flat.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
The inside of a torus is a doubly curved surface; the inside of a ring is a singly curved surface.

To make this clearer... if you are facing so that the upward curve is in front of you, on a torus, the space to your left and right is a downward curve, while on a ring, left and right are flat.

Sorry Morrus, and more importantly, DMZ2112. Lost my temper there.

@ Aramis Erak: While I'm not up on my geometric shapes, I do understand that a torus and a ring are not the same thing. Your second paragraph makes the distinction clear, to me at least.

But I still fail to see the practical difference between a torus-shaped city and a ring-shaped city when described in "layman's terms". Describing Sigil as a ring, rather than a torus, is technically wrong . . . but who cares? It doesn't make folks who aren't familiar with the term "torus" stupid, or WotC "coddling" or "dumbing down" to use the term "ring" instead.

Before I purchased my first Planescape product, I'd never heard of a torus before. And outside of the Planescape literature, I've never encountered the term anywhere else. If I describe Sigil to my players as a city on the inside of a torus, I'll get blank stares. If I instead describe it as on the inside of a ring, they immediately get it and have a pretty accurate picture (if not completely accurate picture) of what Sigil looks like. Win. I can always later have some smarty-pants Guvner lecture them on the fine differences between a torus and a ring.
 

aramis erak

Legend
Sorry Morrus, and more importantly, DMZ2112. Lost my temper there.

@ Aramis Erak: While I'm not up on my geometric shapes, I do understand that a torus and a ring are not the same thing. Your second paragraph makes the distinction clear, to me at least.

But I still fail to see the practical difference between a torus-shaped city and a ring-shaped city when described in "layman's terms". Describing Sigil as a ring, rather than a torus, is technically wrong . . . but who cares? It doesn't make folks who aren't familiar with the term "torus" stupid, or WotC "coddling" or "dumbing down" to use the term "ring" instead.

Before I purchased my first Planescape product, I'd never heard of a torus before. And outside of the Planescape literature, I've never encountered the term anywhere else. If I describe Sigil to my players as a city on the inside of a torus, I'll get blank stares. If I instead describe it as on the inside of a ring, they immediately get it and have a pretty accurate picture (if not completely accurate picture) of what Sigil looks like. Win. I can always later have some smarty-pants Guvner lecture them on the fine differences between a torus and a ring.

The difference in practical terms...
Visibility
On a ring: side to side visibility is about 65 miles (the visibility of clear air at STP)
On a torus: side to side visibility is restricted by the curvature. If the torus is 50 miles tube diameter, then an object at surface is visible for roughly 1200' (using d=√(2Dh + h²)); calculate twice (once for item, once for observer) for taller objects. If the torus is 250 miles tube diameter, it's about 4000'...
On the inside of the tube of the torus itself, it gets even weirder... side to side visibility is around 60 miles or the distance to the side, whichever is shorter. Distance along the torus tube, however, now is constrained by the maximum of 2√(2R₁R₂ + R₂²) with R₁ being the inside diameter of the torus, and R₂ being the tube radius...

Mapping & navigation
Ring: there are edges. The edges do not meet. it's easier to map
Torus: if you go towards the side, eventually you are upside down relative to where you started, and if you continue, you wind up back where you began. You can approximate the map with two rows of diamonds...
◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Left side; up is outside, down is inside
◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ right side, up is inside, down is outside.

Surface area
A torus has more surface area for a given diameter.
 

As a Planescape fan, I don't think I'd ever realized a design intent that you could go "sideways" in Sigil and wrap around to the other side of town. And I'd always enjoyed introducing primes to Sigil with the "and the city extends to the horizon and goes up ... up ... up until you can see the other side of it overhead."
 

Remove ads

Top