Help! I Have An Indecisive Player!

[pukunui]

Greetings!

One of the players in my group suffers from some serious indecisiveness. She often struggles to make up her mind when creating a character (eg. despite having had two weeks to make her PC, she still showed up to the first session of my current campaign with an incomplete character), and when we're actually playing, she frequently suffers from decision paralysis. She doesn't appear to plan ahead during combat and seems to be unable to handle the pressure of being put on the spot when it's her turn. (IIRC she got her start with PbP, and I sometimes wonder if she'd be happier still playing that way than face-to-face.)

She also always plays a Lawful Goody-Two-Shoes type of character. One of the other players said to me recently that he felt we needed to get her to come out of her shell a little and try playing something a little more chaotic. (Her current PC is technically Chaotic Good but she hasn't been roleplaying her that way.)

In addition, over the past few years, she has played multiple different versions of D&D (3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4e, NEXT, and 5e) plus FATE Bulldogs!, and she frequently gets confused about which rules are in which game - sometimes quite stubbornly so, too, much to the frustration of myself and the other people in the group. I'm always telling her "not in this edition" or "you must unlearn what you have learned".

I don't want to kick her out of the group merely because she can be slow and confused. The trouble is that I've got six players, which means that encounters can sometimes take a while as it is, even when everyone is on the ball. Coaxing decisions/answers out of her can be quite trying sometimes. I don't want to punish her by putting her on a time limit (after which time her character automatically delays or something) either.

Do you think it would be worth teaching her how to be more decisive, especially at the table, or should I just leave her be? If yes, has anyone got any good suggestions on how I can go about doing it in a considerate way? If no, has anyone got any viable workarounds for minimizing the disruptive effects of her indecisiveness?


Thanks in advance!

 

[delericho]

One of the players in my group suffers from some serious indecisiveness. She often struggles to make up her mind when creating a character (eg. despite having had two weeks to make her PC, she still showed up to the first session of my current campaign with an incomplete character),

In that case, I would recommend arranging a meeting with her, and only her, to walk her through character creation ahead of time. And, if she's really having trouble, the line "your first idea is probably your best one," is your friend.

and when we're actually playing, she frequently suffers from decision paralysis. She doesn't appear to plan ahead during combat and seems to be unable to handle the pressure of being put on the spot when it's her turn.

Make the point to her that her character is under pressure, and has to act in haste. And advise her to come up with a couple of go-to actions (basic attack, an attack cantrip, whatever) for when she's not sure.

Thereafter, the first time there's a delay, remind her of the above. The second time, say "quickly, please". The third time, start audibly counting down from 10 (and each time after that reduce the count - start at 8, 5, 3...). If the count expires, she loses her action.

She also always plays a Lawful Goody-Two-Shoes type of character. One of the other players said to me recently that he felt we needed to get her to come out of her shell a little and try playing something a little more chaotic.

I disagree. If she's happy playing that type of character, let her.

In addition, over the past few years, she has played multiple different versions of D&D (3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4e, NEXT, and 5e) plus FATE Bulldogs!, and she frequently gets confused about which rules are in which game - sometimes quite stubbornly so, too

I assume that this is with various groups, and not because you've been frequently changing the rules on her?

My advice here would simply be to correct her and move on. Just as you shouldn't debate with a rules lawyer in the middle of a combat, so too you shouldn't debate matters here. Just apply the rules for this game, and get on with it.

If it's a persistent problem, you can try putting together a cheat sheet for the game, or loan her a PHB to go study, or whatever.

Oh, yes - and pick one ruleset and stick to it! If she has problems moving from one to another, your group needs to do what it can to help, and that means not moving about.

 

[pukunui]

In that case, I would recommend arranging a meeting with her, and only her, to walk her through character creation ahead of time.

I offered to help her several times during the two weeks but was unable to get much out of her.

Make the point to her that her character is under pressure, and has to act in haste. And advise her to come up with a couple of go-to actions (basic attack, an attack cantrip, whatever) for when she's not sure.

She does that herself sometimes. She's currently paying a warlock, so she generally just ends up using eldritch blast.

Thereafter, the first time there's a delay, remind her of the above. The second time, say "quickly, please". The third time, start audibly counting down from 10 (and each time after that reduce the count - start at 8, 5, 3...). If the count expires, she loses her action.

As I said, I don't really want to put her on a timer, as that feels too much like a punishment.

I disagree. If she's happy playing that type of character, let her.

Fair enough.

I assume that this is with various groups, and not because you've been frequently changing the rules on her?

Yes, multiple groups. The group she and I are both in doesn't change rulesets all that often.

My advice here would simply be to correct her and move on. Just as you shouldn't debate with a rules lawyer in the middle of a combat, so too you shouldn't debate matters here. Just apply the rules for this game, and get on with it.

I try to, but as I said, she can be quite stubborn about it sometimes and just won't let t go, even after multiple people have explained it to her as clearly as possible.

If it's a persistent problem, you can try putting together a cheat sheet for the game, or loan her a PHB to go study, or whatever.

She has her own copy of the 5e PHB.

 

[delericho]

I offered to help her several times during the two weeks but was unable to get much out of her.

In that case, I recommend letting her sit out the session creating her character while everyone else gets started. If people won't be helped, sometimes you have to let them suffer the consequences. If you're lucky, next time she'll come prepared.

She does that herself sometimes. She's currently paying a warlock, so she generally just ends up using eldritch blast.

As I said, I don't really want to put her on a timer, as that feels too much like a punishment.

Bear in mind that if you don't everyone else at the table is being punished.

I try to, but as I said, she can be quite stubborn about it sometimes and just won't let t go, even after multiple people have explained it to her as clearly as possible.

If she won't (or can't) learn the rules in use, and also "just won't let go", then there comes a point where that's problem behaviour. Eventually, you have to take a decision: if she won't change then she has to go. Because, again, if you don't 'punish' the one problem player then you are 'punishing' the other four non-problem players.

Sorry if that's not terribly helpful.

 

[Andor]

I would ask her to write out a set of action cards. Use standard 3x5 cards.

Each one should have a single action, clearly labeled at the top, with a description and the rules for that action below and finally any references.

So something like:

Chill Touch
Warlock Cantrip (Necromancy)

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 120'
Components: V,S
Duration: 1 round

Ranged attack: +6 to hit
On Hit: Target takes 1d8 Necrotic damage and can't regen until start of next turn.
-If target is undead it also has disadvantage on attack rolls against me until the end of next turn.
Ref PHB pg 221.

Since she's a warlock her choice of actions is fairly limited so it shouldn't be too onerous.
Once she gets used to them you can ask her to line up her action for the next turn before her turn comes and then if she takes to long you can give her a quick countdown and then just have the top card on the stack be her choice if she hasn't made up her mind.

 

[Umbran]

If she won't (or can't) learn the rules in use, and also "just won't let go", then there comes a point where that's problem behaviour. Eventually, you have to take a decision: if she won't change then she has to go. Because, again, if you don't 'punish' the one problem player then you are 'punishing' the other four non-problem players.

Sorry if that's not terribly helpful.

The helpful point is - *why* does she behave in this manner? You may be able to address some of her issues, if you know why they exist.

How (or if) you can go about finding out why depends on your personal relationship with the player. Sometimes, you can sit down and just ask, "Jane, I've noticed you have a few problems with game. I really want to help you, but I don't know how - I don't know why this is happening. Would you like to discuss it?"

This approach, of course, only works if the player is willing to be open with you about things.

 

[ExploderWizard]

For players with rules issues just have them describe what they would like their character to do in plain terms. You can apply the rules as needed.

On her turn if you don't get an answer in a few seconds just move to the next player. The whole table pays the price for a dithering player and that's not fair either.

 

[Janx]

Sounds like this player is a whole sack of problems.

hyper indecisiveness: How does she decide to eat, poop or get dressed? Assuming she's mastered those, the rest of life isn't rocket surgery either.

argumentative and wrong: people who can't keep things straight in their head AND argue about those things instead of accept that they are frequently wrong and should defer to others are a menace to polite society.

Keep in mind, you are not a trained therapist, fixing somebody else is very likely beyond the mission scope of "playing D&D together". Though there's been a few cases of it working, thinking you can fix severe problems like that may lead to making things worse.

However, Umbran's got the right approach if you want to even begin to understand the scope of the issue to better consider what you can do to help get some improvement.

At the fundamentals, forcing turn length limits (for normal people) helps people learn to make decisions and think on their feet. I can't say that'd be good for a person with a sever decision making problem, but life is about making decisions and she's never going to learn if never challenged. Find a middle-ground solution to put SOME pressure to complete a turn in a timely fashion, but not too draconian.

On the wrongly arguing problem, there's multiple factors.
a) arguing about rules is disruptive to game play
b) incompetent people tend to think they are more competent

My assumption (which could be wrong, and you see how I just left room for that unlike a truly incompetent person), is that arguing needs to stop, just for better gaming's sake. Rules disputes need to be brief and most often defer to GM's on the spot decision regardless of the actual RAW. This is for speed of game play. It's OK if a ruling is wrong if it was reasonable and well meaning.

It would be nice if Wrong Person could be made to see that they are always Wrong and should Shut the Smurf Up, but that goal is likely unattainable and of dubious value compared to the first goal of smoothing out game play.

Now, to look at the problem as "the GM's fault", consider that indecisive behavior may be a result of "screwedya" GMing where every choice is a trap. I doubt it in this case, but you should always check to see how you've added to the problem. It is possible a player could be conditioned to distrust their own judgement, because GMs have made everything "the wrong choice" too often. Just as deciding what to eat in real life is usually not a life and death decision, deciding to kill some orcs with a sword should not be a bad idea most of the time for a professional adventurer.

Even the arguing can be a result of table-top conditioning. If players are always stopping the game to argue, and often get some advantage out of it, that's taught this player to use that tactic. Check to see that players aren't using this to stall or gain some twisted advantage in your group, and this player is just trying to same strategy.

 

[pukunui]

Since she's a warlock her choice of actions is fairly limited so it shouldn't be too onerous.

The ironic thing is she's been complaining that the warlock doesn't get enough spells. In fact, she says that's one of the things she doesn't like about 5e in general. Yet I can't see her coping with even more options.

How (or if) you can go about finding out why depends on your personal relationship with the player. Sometimes, you can sit down and just ask, "Jane, I've noticed you have a few problems with game. I really want to help you, but I don't know how - I don't know why this is happening. Would you like to discuss it?"

This approach, of course, only works if the player is willing to be open with you about things.

Indeed. I asked her just the other day how she was getting on with her character - due to her complaints about the warlock (see above), I offered her the chance to rebuild her PC or make a new one even - and she replied that she wasn't because she couldn't make up her mind. I said that I'd observed that that seemed to be a regular thing for her and asked if there was anything I could do to help. I'm still waiting for a response.

On her turn if you don't get an answer in a few seconds just move to the next player. The whole table pays the price for a dithering player and that's not fair either.

I think that this may be what I end up doing. In fact, I may have already done it once or twice. I guess I should be more consistent about it.

Now, to look at the problem as "the GM's fault", consider that indecisive behavior may be a result of "screwedya" GMing where every choice is a trap. I doubt it in this case, but you should always check to see how you've added to the problem. It is possible a player could be conditioned to distrust their own judgement, because GMs have made everything "the wrong choice" too often. Just as deciding what to eat in real life is usually not a life and death decision, deciding to kill some orcs with a sword should not be a bad idea most of the time for a professional adventurer.

Even the arguing can be a result of table-top conditioning. If players are always stopping the game to argue, and often get some advantage out of it, that's taught this player to use that tactic. Check to see that players aren't using this to stall or gain some twisted advantage in your group, and this player is just trying to same strategy.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not me, because she's been like this ever since I started playing with her, regardless of who is GMing. I've heard from other players who play with her in other games that she's the same in the other groups too.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I concur with Umbran, I too have an indecisive player who pretty much fits your description. However the group knows that he has a touch of obsessive/compulsive/attention deficit and tends to take forever at making any decision. If this is the case on your end, you and the group have to decide whether the freindship is worth the frustration.

Having simplified cards help, as does having a 'Go-to' action... in my players case its 'shoot it with my bow'. If I know his characters options don't have some encounter changing capability available {spell caster, natch}, and he is dithering I can prompt him with 'Can you shoot it?'. At which point he usually thinks for a sec and says 'Yeah, I shoot it'.

Table dynamics can be one of the messiest things. My current group is so far laid back that I haven't tried to expand it by asking some other gamer buddies in. Its not uncommon to spend a 4+ hour session and complete one encounter. {Not 4e either..}