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Please define a couple of common terms I see used on here

Or if you know your DM goes out of their way to avoid killing player characters, you can ignore your constitution and dexterity scores since even if you get hit and run out of HP, the DM will avoid killing you.
 
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Min-maxing is a lot worse in games where ALL character parameters are bought through character creation. These game also often had ways to cripple a character in some ways to grant more abilities in other departments.

It would be like trading off saving throw proficiencies for +2 to a stat, then taking disadvantage on all saves for +2 attack bonus, then trading out 1d10 hit dice for 1d6 hit dice for two bonus feats.
 
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Thanks again all.

I keep reading/hearing about Meta-Gaming.

I see the term being used, but am not 100% what it really means to meta-game. Youtube guys seems to use it a bit differently from each other as well. Some seem to look at in a bad light, while others use the term casually, as if it's no big deal.

My best understanding of it, is that Meta-Gaming is using information you have gained from playing other games in an attempt to gain an advantage in your current game.

What say you?
 

Thanks again all.

I keep reading/hearing about Meta-Gaming.

The 'metagame' is the part of the game that occurs out side of the game itself. So your example of using information the player has in the real world but the character would not have in the imagined game world is an example of metagaming. Another example would be negotiating with, flattering, or attempting to bully the DM, in order to gain some advantage in the game world (for example 'rules lawyering'). On a basic level, you can think of it as being the difference between 'OOC' (out of character) and 'IC' (in character) things.

Most of the common examples of 'meta-gaming' refer to behaviors that are generally seen as anti-social and bad for the game (and the enjoyment of the game).

But the metagame itself is not actually a bad thing, and is of course essential for there to be a game at all. For example, it's the metagame that allows us to agree to cooperate and play together and respect each other.

As a general rule, the GM should try to ensure that issues in the metagame aren't addressed in the game, and that issues in the game aren't addressed by the metagame. There are of course exceptions. For example, a player could express, "I'm uncomfortable with this scene because of X." Depending on the complaint, that could require either changing the metagame (how the scene was played out and described, if at all) or the game (what actually happened in the scene and what consequences it had, if any).
 

A classic example of meta-gaming would be a player reading monster stats from a monster manual while at the gaming table. Back in the 1e era it was considered taboo, by 3.X it was hard for some DMs to keep "non player" books out of the players hands, and 4e tried to make the DM nearly obsolete (at least at the on set)

Meta-gaming and min-maxing are also both hallmarks of "power gamers"

Power gamers are usually under the delusion that there is an "end game" or that they are trying/going to "win" the game.
 

Some elements of meta-gaming are unavoidable. For example it is almost impossible for a modern player to grasp morality in terms other than modern monotheistic ones. Likewise as far as your character is concerned fire hurts like hell, however the player will usually just see 1d6 per round and think "I can take this for 20 rounds. I just ignore the fire."

A common example, in 3e especially, was the '5 minute adventuring day.' Having depleted their spells character would often hole up in a room and rest for 23 hours in spite of the fact that they had only fought two battles and spent 10 minutes of their day actually doing something. This is because they saw a sharp fall off in combat effectiveness without those spells slots and so would just refuse to fight. So they would shut a door and pretend to not be there, trusting the GM to let them get away with it in spite of the fact that they are in a castle full of intelligent humanoids and incorporal undead. And the GM, not wanting his game to end, would run the NPCs like mindless drones who ignored the shut door and piles of bodies and the cycle of meta-gaming complicity was complete.

One of the reasons that I, personally, hate x/day abilities is that they encourage meta-game thinking. In every encounter the player is thinking "Is this the big bad guy? Do I need to save this for the boss monster? It's 4pm and Jim said the game is only running till 5, so there won't be time for more than one more encounter, I'll go ahead and rage."
 

Some elements of meta-gaming are unavoidable.

Certainly true.

Likewise as far as your character is concerned fire hurts like hell, however the player will usually just see 1d6 per round and think "I can take this for 20 rounds. I just ignore the fire."

However, you've got this one backwards. As far as your character is concerned, fire does 1d6 damage per round and is not especially painful. However, you the player - in whatever capacity - know that real world fire is dangerous and painful and so imagine that the fire has those properties for your character even though it clearly and unmistakably doesn't. Likewise, you are suggesting that the player metagame by playing the character in a way that isn't justified by game reality - as if the fire had the properties of out of game fire rather than the properties it actually has in the game. The problem here is that there is a certain degree of verisimilitude to reality you wish your game to have that the mechanics fail to have. However, the in game world is defined by whatever it actually simulates, not by what you wish it would simulate (what you the player wish was happening in game is inherently part of the metagame). A group that ceases to pretend that the game has features it doesn't have, has stopped metagaming rather than started metagaming.

Now note, I'm not suggesting this is necessarily good for the group. By agreeing to metagame that fire is particularly hot and deadly, the group may have been able to ignore problems with the rules that otherwise would have greatly irritated one or more players. In this case, metagaming is 'good' - if perhaps not the most appropriate solution to a problem that isn't actually occurring in the metagame (how the game is played) but with the game itself (what the rules of the game actually are).

If in fact you want the players to play their characters as if fire was especially painful and dangerous, the best approach is to make fire mechanically have those consequences. Then the game reality will produce the behavior that you desire in the metagame. Asking the player to ignore the game reality in favor of your out of game understanding of fire is asking the player to metagame.

A common example, in 3e especially, was the '5 minute adventuring day.' Having depleted their spells character would often hole up in a room and rest for 23 hours in spite of the fact that they had only fought two battles and spent 10 minutes of their day actually doing something. This is because they saw a sharp fall off in combat effectiveness without those spells slots and so would just refuse to fight. So they would shut a door and pretend to not be there, trusting the GM to let them get away with it in spite of the fact that they are in a castle full of intelligent humanoids and incorporal undead. And the GM, not wanting his game to end, would run the NPCs like mindless drones who ignored the shut door and piles of bodies and the cycle of meta-gaming complicity was complete.

Again, the players aren't metagaming here. The game reality that the characters observe is if you hole yourself up in a room, you are safe and can recover full combat effectiveness. Since this is the most effective in game strategy, this isn't metagaming. It's what actual characters in the observed game world would logically do. The person who is actually metagaming here is the GM, who makes the decision to run intelligent creatures as mindless drones for a reason that exists only at the metagame level - his personal desire for the game to not end.

A player that tried this in my game based on the metagame assumption that monsters don't act according to their recorded intelligence because the GM is afraid to kill PC's will be disabused of that notion quite quickly.

One of the reasons that I, personally, hate x/day abilities is that they encourage meta-game thinking

I think my biggest problem with such powers is rather a different but related problem; namely, that such mechanics are usually dissociated from the game reality and lack a rigorous explanation in the game reality. Usually, if the power is somewhat of a supernatural character, you can invent some plausible association between the mechanics and the described game reality. But x/day abilities that lack a supernatural explanation are just about impossible to associate with the described game reality, because we don't observe abilities having those precise restrictions in the 'real world'. Dissociated mechanics undermine or ability to role play the game, since the game is less and less encouraging us to simultaneously play the game and imagine the reality it is simulating. The more dissociated your game mechanics, the less like a role playing game it will feel to many people.
 
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However, you've got this one backwards. As far as your character is concerned, fire does 1d6 damage per round and is not especially painful. However, you the player - in whatever capacity - know that real world fire is dangerous and painful and so imagine that the fire has those properties for your character even though it clearly and unmistakably doesn't.

You are conflating painful and deadly. The two qualities are unrelated. A migraine headache is cripplingly painful but cannot kill you directly. Likewise in the real world I could (if I had the will and stupidity) hold my hand over a torch flame for an hour without dying (then and there, I'm quite likely to die later from infection or fluid loss, things D&D does not model well,) whereas a D&D character would take 1d4 a round and die within a minute unless at mid to high level. A real world person can probably survive in a burning room at least as long as most D&D characters from a damage stand point. OTOH we will suffer long term potentially fatal after effects of which the character need not concern himself. That these differences in the way the real world burn damage functions vs the way D&D models it should mean that the levels of perceived pain should differ is not an apparent consequence to me.

I have no intention to start another HP thread, but honestly I see no justification, at all, for the notion that damage = pain. You may as well say that a D&D rose bush can deal thorn damage and therefore smells of pain, rather than roses.

Again, the players aren't metagaming here. The game reality that the characters observe is if you hole yourself up in a room, you are safe and can recover full combat effectiveness. Since this is the most effective in game strategy, this isn't metagaming. It's what actual characters in the observed game world would logically do. The person who is actually metagaming here is the GM, who makes the decision to run intelligent creatures as mindless drones for a reason that exists only at the metagame level - his personal desire for the game to not end.

This is only true the second time the characters do it. The first time is driven purely by meta-game expectations of the GMs actions.

A player that tried this in my game based on the metagame assumption that monsters don't act according to their recorded intelligence because the GM is afraid to kill PC's will be disabused of that notion quite quickly.

Good. :D That always drove me nuts as a player.
 

Sorry for the double post, but I have another n00b terminology question.

What does it mean when people say "min-max" your character?

Min-max is a concept that has been around longer and in broader contexts than role playing games. It gets discussed quite about in game theory because it's a pretty good strategy for competitive games (see Nash's equilibrium).

While it often crops up in discussions about building characters, it can come up in play as well. If you have a relatively unbalanced group of PCs (heavy on the rogue, light on the cleric), you might want to apply a min-max strategy to choosing where to go and what to do. Focus on stealth (maximize advantages of having a lot of PCs with that as a trained skill), avoid straight-up fights (minimize incoming damage that you can't easily compensate for), buy wands of cure light wounds (maximize advantage of having a lot of PCs with trained use magic device skills while minimizing the effect of lost hit points), and so on.
 

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