D&D 5E CR to Level calculation ?

[Dausuul]

In general, the 5E rules treat level and CR as rough equivalents. For example, spells like polymorph restrict you to forms of CR equal to or less than the target's CR or level.

The thing to keep in mind about the NPC statblocks is that they are designed to serve a role. They are meant as possible allies and fun opponents, that can be run by a DM whose attention is split between multiple combatants. They are not combat-optimized and they don't have the full array of abilities for a PC of that level. For the spellcasters, you can see this in their spell selections and stats. That's why their CR is often lower than their putative level.

If you build an NPC spellcaster using the PC rules, and optimize the character as you would a PC of that level (pump the casting stat as high as you can, take feats, etc.), I would use CR = level. But be very careful doing that. PCs have relatively low hit points and high damage output, so pitting PCs against NPCs built using the same rules risks turning into rocket tag.

 

[Chocolategravy]

And the dumb wizard should die if it let the ogre get that close 5 first levels can beat a Ogre if done right

Ogres move faster than 1st level PCs. An ogre can eat 5 first level PCs if done right.

 

[Quickleaf]

Anyone know how CR relates to class level? If I wanted the party to take on a 4th level wizard, built using standard array, how difficult of a fight would that be for 4 2nd level PCs also using standard are?

Short answer:

Spellcaster level x 2/3 = CR
Non-spellcaster level x 1/2 = CR

Complicated answer:

It depends on the spellcaster's available spells (utility spells being valued far less than defensive or offensive spells in CR calculations), what sort of class features you're including besides Spellcasting, and a variety of factors (which [MENTION=84453]su[/MENTION]rfarcer has done an excellent job of cataloging, and apparently are described in detail in the DMG) including AC, HP, average damage per round, highest ability score, and a whole host of other stats. Using the simple guidelines above probably will get you in the rough ballpark (+/-2) for a PC class to Monster conversion, but don't expect it to be dead on balls accurate. If you want greater accuracy then you'll need to crunch some numbers.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The assassin is missing its uncanny dodge ability, maybe something else.

For rogues, though there's only 2 examples, it's hard to extract a formula. The assassin is level 7 or 8 in abilities, the spy is level 3 or 4. The assassin is CR 8; the spy is CR 1/2. I haven't run them through the DMG yet though. It probably makes more sense there.

The assassin has wyvern sting venom coating all of his weapon attacks, which is probably ramping up the CR. It would likely drop if that damage was taken off.

 

[Eric V]

The assassin has wyvern sting venom coating all of his weapon attacks, which is probably ramping up the CR. It would likely drop if that damage was taken off.

Good catch, thanks. So then if [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] is correct, that bumps his CR up by 3 or 4?

 

[aramis erak]

Good catch, thanks. So then if [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] is correct, that bumps his CR up by 3 or 4?

2d6+2d8+6 vs 2d6+9d8+6... DPR 22 vs 54 Save DC 15... OCR 4 vs 8. DCR is 8. So, no poison is CR 6 vs CR 8

Remember: Defense component and Offense component are averaged.

 

[Rhenny]

Interestingly though, I think you need to make sure you understand that a glass cannon in 5e could be way more deadly than a defensive monster. Most encounters only last 2-5 rounds. If a creature can alpha strike, the CR is actually much more than what is listed. This goes along with the caveat to encounter difficulty that mentions situations where the monsters gain surprise.

 

[Li Shenron]

Short answer:

Spellcaster level x 2/3 = CR
Non-spellcaster level x 1/2 = CR

Complicated answer:

It depends on the spellcaster's available spells (utility spells being valued far less than defensive or offensive spells in CR calculations), what sort of class features you're including besides Spellcasting, and a variety of factors (which [MENTION=84453]su[/MENTION]rfarcer has done an excellent job of cataloging, and apparently are described in detail in the DMG) including AC, HP, average damage per round, highest ability score, and a whole host of other stats. Using the simple guidelines above probably will get you in the rough ballpark (+/-2) for a PC class to Monster conversion, but don't expect it to be dead on balls accurate. If you want greater accuracy then you'll need to crunch some numbers.

Nice post, but is the short answer based on the DMG or is it your own conclusion?

I was thinking the same, that 5e PCs (unlike maybe 4e) aren't all equivalent in terms of combat capabilities, and that is what CR is practically about... Thus a Wizard designed only for combat (defensive/offensive) necessarily has a different CR compared to a Wizard designed for exploration, interaction and other areas of the game. The DMG should provide at least some help.

 

[Quickleaf]

Nice post, but is the short answer based on the DMG or is it your own conclusion?

I was thinking the same, that 5e PCs (unlike maybe 4e) aren't all equivalent in terms of combat capabilities, and that is what CR is practically about... Thus a Wizard designed only for combat (defensive/offensive) necessarily has a different CR compared to a Wizard designed for exploration, interaction and other areas of the game. The DMG should provide at least some help.

It is my own conclusion/guideline based on the NPCs in the back of the Monster Manual. Sorry, thought that was clear. For example, a 9th level caster gets CR 6 (Mage), while an 8th level warrior gets CR 3 (Knight). I may be high-balling the warrior monster CR, for some it may be closer to CR = 1/3 x level. Regardless, this is just a rule-of-thumb, and whether designing monsters or NPCs we need to (a) estimate / use our DM instincts, (b) compare the monster/NPC to others of the same CR, and (when we have time) (c) run the hard numbers using either [MENTION=84774]surfarcher[/MENTION]'s method or the DMG method.

The DMG's approach to CR calculating sounds very similar to the method [MENTION=84774]surfarcher[/MENTION] developed....you come up with a defensive index and an offensive index for your monster, then somehow merge those two indices to determine its CR.

 

[Tormyr]

Nice post, but is the short answer based on the DMG or is it your own conclusion?

I was thinking the same, that 5e PCs (unlike maybe 4e) aren't all equivalent in terms of combat capabilities, and that is what CR is practically about... Thus a Wizard designed only for combat (defensive/offensive) necessarily has a different CR compared to a Wizard designed for exploration, interaction and other areas of the game. The DMG should provide at least some help.

While that is true, the published wizards so far have had a CR 2/3 of their spellcaster level. When calculating CR of a PC or NPC made using PC rules, the CR will probably not change a whole lot depending on whether the wizard is optimized for combat or exploration. The CR calculation of Effective DPR includes using the average of the most devastating attacks for 3 rounds. Most wizards have 1 good damage spell near their highest spell level, so most will come up with the same CR at the same spellcaster level.