D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?

[Hriston]

So, being "surprised" by the couple guys in the woods means that the PCs can't move or take actions on their first turn of combat, even against the obvious bad guys right in front of them? Is that right?

Yeah, that's right, because they are surprised.

 

[Azrothan]

If the archers attack before the decoy bandits

Ofc I think my answer is the best guideline to use in this scenario. It isn't about which one of them attacks first, but rather how much of a threat the visible group is. If it's clearly bandits in their path, there is no way that the hidden element will surprise anyone as everyone in the party is expecting combat.

If the ambushers wanted to surprise their enemy they should have gone further away from the group on the road; asked them to remain out of sight or have them disguised as travellers (though this might still seem suspicious to the PCs, so they might be more alert). ^^

 

[Quickleaf]

There is no such thing as a "surprise round" in 5E. There's just the first round of combat. "Surprised" is a condition*; those who are surprised can't take actions or reactions until they stop being surprised. (They're also vulnerable to auto-crits from assassins, and other such things.)

[SIZE=-2]*Not included in the standard conditions list, but it really should be.[/SIZE]

The rule seems rather clear, now that I look at it. Surprise only applies to the first turn. It's checked by passive Wisdom (Perception) vs. Dexterity (Stealth) roll. If you're surprised, you don't move or take an action for that first turn.

So, if the decoy bandits attack before the hidden archers, the characters aren't surprised by the archers. They get advantage on attacks on any character that didn't notice them.

If the archers attack before the decoy bandits, anyone who didn't notice them with passive Wisdom (Perception) is Surprised. This includes the decoy bandits, who will need to make perception rolls to notice their brothers.

The only remaining questions, IMO, are DM calls -- do the PCs get active Wisdom (Perception) checks because they are on their guard? We can assume that the decoy bandits are scanning the trees for signs of their brethren -- do they get active checks? And if so, do they get advantage?

So now I'm going to go XP everyone who gave this answer!

Yeah, that's right, because they are surprised.

I agree those are the rules, and [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] you said it well: surprised is treated as an almost condition.

However, applying that rule to all situations gives crazy results...

1 Goblin Rogue surprises the PCs, therefore his 30 Hobgoblin allies (who obviously failed to be disguised as human soldiers in heavy cloaks) get to take advantage of the PCs' surprised state and wail on them the first round of combat.

Thus, in most fights the ideal strategy is to have one Super-Stealth monster/NPC/PC surprise the enemy, while the rest of their allies just show up. It's practically a "Win" button, or at least a "Gain Devastating Advantage" button.

I wonder how you guys don't see this as crazy? Maybe you're looking at the OP example very differently?

 

[fjw70]

There is no such thing as a "surprise round" in 5E. There's just the first round of combat. "Surprised" is a condition*; those who are surprised can't take actions or reactions until they stop being surprised. (They're also vulnerable to auto-crits from assassins, and other such things.)

[SIZE=-2]*Not included in the standard conditions list, but it really should be.[/SIZE]

Don't get caught up in the terminology. I am using surprise round to mean the first round of combat where those surprised cannot act.

 

[fjw70]

I agree those are the rules, and [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] you said it well: surprised is treated as an almost condition.

However, applying that rule to all situations gives crazy results...

1 Goblin Rogue surprises the PCs, therefore his 30 Hobgoblin allies (who obviously failed to be disguised as human soldiers in heavy cloaks) get to take advantage of the PCs' surprised state and wail on them the first round of combat.

Thus, in most fights the ideal strategy is to have one Super-Stealth monster/NPC/PC surprise the enemy, while the rest of their allies just show up. It's practically a "Win" button, or at least a "Gain Devastating Advantage" button.

I wonder how you guys don't see this as crazy? Maybe you're looking at the OP example very differently?

I agree it is crazy. At my table you have to be surprised by all enemies in the fight to be surprised. So the in the OP the bandits in the open would have to sit out the first round for any PCs to be surprised.

 

[Hriston]

... editions I'm used to made surprise a bonus attack for those who surprised their enemy.

I'm not sure which editions you're citing here. My experience has been with AD&D 1e. In that edition surprise did very much what it does in 5e. It kept the surprised party from acting for one or more segments (6 seconds) each of which was treated as an entire round for the purposes of the other party making attacks, taking actions, or whatever. Looking back at the OD&D rules, however, surprise gives the surprising party a round of extra attacks. In a simple situation these two systems would have essentially the same result: one side gets a turn and the other does not, but I tend to go with the AD&D explanations of the rules in general because I view that as a more fleshed out version of the game, giving more insight into the mind of its creator. I can see how the OD&D description may have influenced some of the later editions and given rise to alternate ways to apply surprise.

Both of the above cited editions agree on one thing and that's that surprise is only possible if one side or the other is unaware of the presence of the other. Even if the "decoy bandits" can't actually see their colleagues hiding in the woods, I don't think anyone can make a credible argument that they are unaware of their presence. They are working in conjunction with one another after all! Twisting the rules in this way to ensure the outcome of archers firing but decoys not attacking while the PCs are surprised seems like some pretty desperate rules-lawyering.

 

[Dausuul]

Don't get caught up in the terminology. I am using surprise round to mean the first round of combat where those surprised cannot act.

The distinction matters, though. In a system with surprise rounds, an extra action is granted to "those who have surprise." In the 5E system, actions are denied to "those who are surprised." The key difference is what happens to those who neither have surprise nor are surprised--in this example, the visible bandits standing in front of the PCs.

Under the surprise round system, the visible bandits do not have surprise, so they don't get to act on the surprise round. The snipers are the only ones who can act. They take their shots, and then combat proceeds.

Under the 5E system, everyone can act on the first round except those who are surprised. So the visible bandits would get to attack just like their sniper companions. If the PCs are surprised, they will be the only ones not acting.

This is why I argue that there should be no surprise in this encounter. The PCs know there is a threat, even if they don't know its full extent. They are already braced and ready for trouble. Surprise is when trouble hits somebody who isn't expecting it. The proper way to handle this scenario is for everyone to roll initiative, and then start combat on the snipers' initiative. (Effectively, everyone who rolled higher than the snipers used their action to talk.)

 

[fjw70]

Ł

The distinction matters, though. In a system with surprise rounds, an extra action is granted to "those who have surprise." In the 5E system, actions are denied to "those who are surprised." The key difference is what happens to those who neither have surprise nor are surprised--in this example, the visible bandits standing in front of the PCs.

Under the surprise round system, the visible bandits do not have surprise, so they don't get to act on the surprise round. The snipers are the only ones who can act. They take their shots, and then combat proceeds.

Under the 5E system, everyone can act on the first round except those who are surprised. So the visible bandits would get to attack just like their sniper companions. If the PCs are surprised, they will be the only ones not acting.

This is why I argue that there should be no surprise in this encounter. The PCs know there is a threat, even if they don't know its full extent. They are already braced and ready for trouble. Surprise is when trouble hits somebody who isn't expecting it. The proper way to handle this scenario is for everyone to roll initiative, and then start combat on the snipers' initiative. (Effectively, everyone who rolled higher than the snipers used their action to talk.)

the difference doesn't matter the way I run it. I am not sure if the rules allow someone to be surprised by some but all of the enemy but i don't. Being aware of one enemy in the fight negates surprise for all.

 

[aramis erak]

Ł

the difference doesn't matter the way I run it. I am not sure if the rules allow someone to be surprised by some but all of the enemy but i don't. Being aware of one enemy in the fight negates surprise for all.

It doesn't... but it's not hard to adjudicate as a DM. Any actions have to be based upon the ones they aren't surprised by.

Or, if you're a real jerk-type DM, impose the surprised condition on the round the archers fire, and the melee guys already engaged suddenly become MUCH more effective - the targets can't react and can't take actions.

 

[Hriston]

I would treat it, in this case, as "those with surprise get a free round of actions".

Thus, the archers get a surprise round, let's call it round 0; then everyone else starts going on round 1.

Does everyone agree now that "surprise round" = the first round, the only round in which a creature may be surprised? Under that definition the above scenario is not possible unless you are also going to rule that the visible bandits are themselves surprised by their hidden colleagues which IMO is bending the rules. Surprise pretty clearly only applies to parties that are hostile to one another.

On the other hand, if you want to create a special "round 0" by DM fiat in which only parties chosen by you may act, I suppose that's your prerogative, but it wasn't what the OP was about.