D&D General Surprise, Initiative and What will you do?

mellored

Legend
When do you roll initiative again if nothing happens?
Next round?
after 3 rounds?
After 1 minute?
More?

when do the "out of combat" condition arrive?
Same thing that happened before.

2014
Rogue hidden: ok, let's start, 16 initiative
DM: guard rolled a 20 on initiative
Rogue: dang, i don't get 2 turns to kill him. I sneak away.


And if you win initiative and don't see anyone, dodge or search is a good action to take. Reminder that if anyone finds you in 2024 they all do.
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Some of my standard formats for running the starts of combats (that are never in the actual rules but are just what I do for my own "logical" methodology) include things like...

- If a group has spent time setting up an ambush for an enemy they know is there and that they hear but the enemies don't... then when the ambush happens I let them take their attacks before initiative is even rolled. Which is basically like your typical "Surprise round"... but I don't even have "rounds" starting yet for that initial ambush attack. This oftentimes will occur when a group comes to a closed door and hears people on the inside talking or whatever (not expecting to be attacked), wins the Stealth vs Perception check, and then prepares for the fight and then storms into the room. Everyone gets a "free action" to do whatever it is they wish in whatever order they wish, and then I'll have everyone roll Initiative on both sides after the ambush occurs.

It's essentially the same as the "anyone surprised doesn't get to act in the first round" situation... but by not having them roll initiative, I let the players (or the monsters I'm running) select the order in which they act. So if the signal to go is one of the PCs firing into the fray first or opening a door... you don't end up with the silly scenario where the PC tank who is supposed to be opening the door and rushing in to attack ends up rolling crappy on their initiative roll and thus has to "go last"-- thereby rendering the rest of the group needing to take their actions before the trigger for their movement even occurs. So I just skip all that and say that the tank gets to open the door and rush in to start things, and the rest of the characters can stream in in whichever order they want and take their action. Then once that has occurred, roll initiative and go with your regular combat.

- In a non-ambush situation where the party is stealthing and just happens upon some monsters randomly but doesn't have time to set up an "ambush" (say the group turns the corner in the dungeon and happens upon some monsters with both of them now out in the open), then the standard Stealth vs Perception checks will occur for the movment up to the encounter) and then everything happens relatively simultaneously. Those members of each side who didn't notice the other will not act in that first round like the normal game rules. And whether I have both sides roll group Stealth checks / Perception checks or individual Stealth checks / Perception checks will be dependent on the situation.

I basically go with "cinematic style" for these kinds of things-- if this were a movie, how would this scene work? And I'll choose the formatting that makes the most sense for what is occurring in the moment.
 

Horwath

Legend
Same thing that happened before.

2014
Rogue hidden: ok, let's start, 16 initiative
DM: guard rolled a 20 on initiative
Rogue: dang, i don't get 2 turns to kill him. I sneak away.


And if you win initiative and don't see anyone, dodge or search is a good action to take. Reminder that if anyone finds you in 2024 they all do.
that is why we rolled initiative after surprise round.

1. everyone that has surprise decide the order of actions.
2. 1st turn actions are over
3. roll initiative
4. begin round 2 in initiative order.

no metagame.

also, how would rogue know what the guard rolled before guard acted?
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
In WFRP surprised is a condition that gives you a penalty to defend and means you can’t take an action. You lose it at the end of your first round or after you are attacked - whichever comes first. I like this approach.

I think it would work very well for 5e
The more I hear about WFRP, the more interested I become.
 


I don't see how this is a new problem...

Previously you needed a feat, magic item, or specific class feature - now you can also achieve the same thing with excellent luck on dice rolls.

I think you just explained things very well. I'm not sure if it's a problem (especially before we get the DMG), but it's a noticeable change. Previously you had a feat, magic, or feature to explain what was going on. Now it's just an abstract thing that happens in the world of D&D.
 

All I can say it can be explained by "the sixth sense", but again, what are you going to do with it?

And I agree, what happens when the "trigger" is resolved last?
If you see no one? Dodge actions? Cast a spell?
Then the ambushers can still do nothing and you waste your action.

When do you roll initiative again if nothing happens?
Next round?
after 3 rounds?
After 1 minute?
More?

when do the "out of combat" condition arrive?
Initiative is only rolled when an attack or other action that starts the conflict is declared. The arrow is drawn back and loosed, the first words of the fireball spell are chanted, the sword clears the sheath and is swung etc.

Now, it is unlikely, but possible that the character of the player who declared the attack would have thought that they got the drop on their enemies, but despite rolling with advantage and them rolling with disadvantage, they still roll a lower initiative. In which case they probably gave the game away by shifting position to aim, creating a noise, or some other stimulus. The player that declared the attack could technically choose to perform another action instead - aborting the shot when they realise that they have revealed the threat for example.

It is also possible to posit a scenario where there is absolutely definitely no way of the victims being able to react to the attack: A long-range fireball into a group sitting in a both silence and darkness spells perhaps. In such a case the DM can adjudicate it the same way as any other check where there is no chance of success, and not allow a roll until the situation has changed and success is possible.

I like the new initiative system. The old one allowed parties to set up situations where they could alpha strike to such a level that the encounter was practically a cakewalk. In the new one, while the odds are in their favour, they still have a chance to fail. Even if they do, after setting up an ambush, the odds are very much in their favour, since presumably they will still have cover/hiding etc.

All forms of initiative are going to have some issues given D&D's turn-based combat system. The important thing to bear in mind I think is that there are very few instantaneous actions. Ranged and melee attacks have travel time, spells take time to cast etc. In both media and real life there are examples of someone starting to do something but another person reacting fast enough to forestall them.
 


Horwath

Legend
In which case they probably gave the game away by shifting position to aim, creating a noise, or some other stimulus.
this should all fall under Stealth vs. Perception before the combat.
you rolled low on stealth and revealed position and ruined surprise, all roll initiative as normal.
those who remained hidden can get advantage on attack.
 

mellored

Legend
that is why we rolled initiative after surprise round.
There is no surprise round in 2014. That's your houserule.

But nothing stops you from running a houserule in 2024.

I suggest making it +40 / -40 to initiative. That lets you go first, but doesn't give you a no action no save stun all enemies.
 

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