D&D General Surprise, Initiative and What will you do?

[Xeviat]

I'm curious what the DMG is gonna say, because the new surprise rules do potentially create an odd situation.

Party A is hidden with stealth DCs higher than party B's passive perception. Party A launches a surprise attack.

ROLL INITIATIVE

But someone from Party B still wins initiative (let's call them Sir Speedy). What do they see?

Is Party A's stealth broken because they made an attack, and thus the rolls are informing the fiction and Sir Speedy of Party B noticed the ambush just before it was launched?

Or does Sir Speedy get their turn but party A is still invisible and thus Sir Speedy doesn't have anything to do except maybe dodge or make an active Search check?

 

[DrJawaPhD]

I'm curious what the DMG is gonna say, because the new surprise rules do potentially create an odd situation.

Party A is hidden with stealth DCs higher than party B's passive perception. Party A launches a surprise attack.

ROLL INITIATIVE

But someone from Party B still wins initiative (let's call them Sir Speedy). What do they see?

Is Party A's stealth broken because they made an attack, and thus the rolls are informing the fiction and Sir Speedy of Party B noticed the ambush just before it was launched?

Or does Sir Speedy get their turn but party A is still invisible and thus Sir Speedy doesn't have anything to do except maybe dodge or make an active Search check?

If you win initiative but don't see anyone then you can try searching, cast a buff spell, cast an AOE in a random location, take the dodge action, take the ready action to line up an attack when they appear, etc.

It's not any different than if you're in combat against some opponents who manage to hide successfully

 

[Deset Gled]

If you win initiative but don't see anyone then you can try searching, cast a buff spell, cast an AOE in a random location, take the dodge action, take the ready action to line up an attack when they appear, etc.

It's not any different than if you're in combat against some opponents who manage to hide successfully

Yes, that's how the mechanics work.

But thinking outside of the combat mechanics, what does that mean? There's no guarantee the person that rolled highest for initiative had a Perception high enough to know why they were rolling initiative at all. Does the character, in game, know they won initiative? Do they know they're acting in rounds? If you're not in combat, would you take the same six seconds to cast a spell as you do under pressure? Why would you take a dodge if the ambush hasn't started yet (and you don't know it's coming)?

It's a weird scenario. Not one that's too difficult to deal with for a seasoned DM. But it's a weird meta space that, IMNSHO, shouldn't come up during normal play.

 

[Horwath]

Yes, that's how the mechanics work.

But thinking outside of the combat mechanics, what does that mean? There's no guarantee the person that rolled highest for initiative had a Perception high enough to know why they were rolling initiative at all. Does the character, in game, know they won initiative? Do they know they're acting in rounds? If you're not in combat, would you take the same six seconds to cast a spell as you do under pressure? Why would you take a dodge if the ambush hasn't started yet (and you don't know it's coming)?

It's a weird scenario. Not one that's too difficult to deal with for a seasoned DM. But it's a weird meta space that, IMNSHO, shouldn't come up during normal play.

All I can say it can be explained by "the sixth sense", but again, what are you going to do with it?

And I agree, what happens when the "trigger" is resolved last?
If you see no one? Dodge actions? Cast a spell?
Then the ambushers can still do nothing and you waste your action.

When do you roll initiative again if nothing happens?
Next round?
after 3 rounds?
After 1 minute?
More?

when do the "out of combat" condition arrive?

 

[DrJawaPhD]

It's a weird scenario. Not one that's too difficult to deal with for a seasoned DM. But it's a weird meta space that, IMNSHO, shouldn't come up during normal play.

I don't see how this is a new problem when this exact scenario already came into play with the 2014 rules from Barbarian Feral Instinct, the Alert feat, or if any allies have a Weapon of Warning. In your scenario, Sir Speedy was able to sense danger and prepare for it before the actual attacks came.

Previously you needed a feat, magic item, or specific class feature - now you can also achieve the same thing with excellent luck on dice rolls. What's so weird about that?

 

[FrogReaver]

I like the new surprise rule. I also usually give 1 stealth player in a surprise situation a free out of combat action to initiate combat, so this will play much more nicely with that than the old surprise rules where sometimes he'd get 3 turns before the enemy got 1.

Also, makes me as DM much less reluctant to use surprise against my players.

 

[TheSword]

Isn't that effectively what 5e is, just adding a further penalty to AC?

The foe losing the condition once they have been attacked is different. It means the entire party doesn’t get to piledrive one foe. That first attack will alert them. They still might not get to go first but if someone is attacking them they’re going to respond to that if they’re quick enough.

 

[Horwath]

I like the new surprise rule. I also usually give 1 stealth player in a surprise situation a free out of combat action to initiate combat, so this will play much more nicely with that than the old surprise rules where sometimes he'd get 3 turns before the enemy got 1.

Also, makes me as DM much less reluctant to use surprise against my players.

how did anyone got 3 turns before someone took 1?

you need to get the surprise for 1 turn and then win initiative for 2nd turn and then opponents are up for theirs?

 

[TiQuinn]

The foe losing the condition once they have been attacked is different. It means the entire party doesn’t get to piledrive one foe. That first attack will alert them. They still might not get to go first but if someone is attacking them they’re going to respond to that if they’re quick enough.

Okay, I see. So if their initiative happens to come after the first attack in that first round, they would still get their attack and reactions then.

 

[Iosue]

Why not both? /zoidbergmeme