D&D General Surprise, Initiative and What will you do?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Have you considered changing Pass Without Trace (and any other rules you don't care for) at your table?

We're discussing RAW. I'm explaining why the new surprise doesn't make 5e's combat even more of a joke than it is.

You guys can ignore it, but there's a reason for it being the way it is. It preserves some very faint element of danger, and to tamps down on dull play loops that overly reward one style of play. If you want surprise rocket tag to be the only viable option, go nuts. But the new surprise rule isn't bad because it doesn't want to further encourage something already incredibly strong.

 

[Belen]

We're discussing RAW. I'm explaining why the new surprise doesn't make 5e's combat even more of a joke than it is.

You guys can ignore it, but there's a reason for it being the way it is. It preserves some very faint element of danger, and to tamps down on dull play loops that overly reward one style of play. If you want surprise rocket tag to be the only viable option, go nuts. But the new surprise rule isn't bad because it doesn't want to further encourage something already incredibly strong.

Because it is not a repetitive play style. It is really rare at my table. I have never seen pass without trace used. Not once.

Maybe you just run with optimized combat junkies.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Because it is not a repetitive play style. It is really rare at my table. I have never seen pass without trace used. Not once.

Maybe you just run with optimized combat junkies.

Using a basic spell that buffs stealth to sneak isn't exactly optimized...

 

[Nefermandias]

All of you guys handing out surprise rounds might as well just declare the other side dead and save yourself some time lol.

That's precisely what I do depending on the situation, and that's not an issue at all.

Sometimes you do achieve overwhelming victory even befor the fight starts. Who told you that fights are supposed to be always fair?

 

[Stormonu]

All of you guys handing out surprise rounds might as well just declare the other side dead and save yourself some time lol. A full round of unloading straight up ends 5e's pathetic enemies. An at that point the campaign is now a series of auto win ambushes with Pass Without Trace's broken +10 to stealth. Congrats, you won D&D!

BG3 had a decent rule. The person who initiates the fight gets their action first. Initiative is rolled. On their count, they pass their turn, having already acted. Initiative is also rolled on a d6, adding much more weight to initiative bonuses due to the spread.

No it does not give an autowin. It does give the surprising side a serious leg up but it is NEVER a given thing. Freakin' PCs hit with whiffle bats as it is most of the time. And for my games, it if reduces the rounds in combat so we can get back to other two pillars quicker, I'm all for it.

 

[Belen]

Using a basic spell that buffs stealth to sneak isn't exactly optimized...

I have never seen a caster take it.

In my current campaign, I have 2 druids, a monk/barbarian, and a fighter rune warrior. They got surprise once shifting into wolves to take out 2 guards. They had to leave the non-druids behind because they could never have gotten close.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Even at 3 rounds, a surprise round is too much.

Eh. It's OK if the party stomps the occasional encounter (or if they get seriously threatened by being ambushed themselves). Having combats isn't really the point of play for me.

Running the game with surprise rounds since about 2000, and I have yet to have a game fall apart because of it. The game is not so fragile.

Though, I think I will try going for a surprise turn instead. Still preserves some of that impact, and avoids some of the tedium of going through every PC's full turn while the monsters twiddle their thumbs. Also lets the stealthy/deceptive characters shine a bit.

 

[Distracted DM]

Eh. It's OK if the party stomps the occasional encounter (or if they get seriously threatened by being ambushed themselves). Having combats isn't really the point of play for me.

Running the game with surprise rounds since about 2000, and I have yet to have a game fall apart because of it. The game is not so fragile.

Though, I think I will try going for a surprise turn instead. Still preserves some of that impact, and avoids some of the tedium of going through every PC's full turn while the monsters twiddle their thumbs. Also lets the stealthy/deceptive characters shine a bit.

Can you elaborate on Surprise Turn?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Can you elaborate on Surprise Turn?

When you would've given a whole round out to the side with surprise, just give out one turn to the character with the highest initiative bonus on the surprising side (or just have the party elect someone). Then, roll initiative (you can keep 2024's advantage/disadvantage if you like, too) and go normally.

Makes ambushes worth getting (an extra sneak attack or TWF + hunter's mark turn is nothing to sniff at!), but means we're not going through EVERYONE before the other side gets to act. Which, even just as a meta-consideration, can be kind of tedious.

I like ambush being a potent strategy, I don't mind a significant advantage, I don't even mind the occasional binary result (I mean, you could use that surprise turn to teleport everyone to the next zip code, I suppose!), but I also try to avoid rolling dice when there's a foregone conclusion, too.

 

[Micah Sweet]

When you would've given a whole round out to the side with surprise, just give out one turn to the character with the highest initiative bonus on the surprising side (or just have the party elect someone). Then, roll initiative (you can keep 2024's advantage/disadvantage if you like, too) and go normally.

Makes ambushes worth getting (an extra sneak attack or TWF + hunter's mark turn is nothing to sniff at!), but means we're not going through EVERYONE before the other side gets to act. Which, even just as a meta-consideration, can be kind of tedious.

I like ambush being a potent strategy, I don't mind a significant advantage, I don't even mind the occasional binary result (I mean, you could use that surprise turn to teleport everyone to the next zip code, I suppose!), but I also try to avoid rolling dice when there's a foregone conclusion, too.

When I hear the word "turn" in the context of D&D, I still think of it in terms of the TSR era 10 minute turns.