D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?

[fjw70]

First I don't believe Perkins was trying to follow RAW in the wyvern encounter. My guess is he did that for entertainment value and nothing wrong with that.

I just don't see the logic of allowing the PCs to be surprised when they can clearly see the threat of the bandits in the open. That interpretation makes no sense to me. Basically this allows a single surpriser to lock down the enemy for an entire round while the surpriser's allies get a free round.

So if the PCs are walking down the road and see a group of ogres charging them then a single hidden goblin could lock the PCs down in the first round. That makes no sense at all.

 

[Pickles JG]

Or, if you're a real jerk-type DM, impose the surprised condition on the round the archers fire, and the melee guys already engaged suddenly become MUCH more effective - the targets can't react and can't take actions.

Like that Perkins fellow

 

[Hriston]

To me this seems to break the rules. The encounter had already started when the wyverns attacked, so the PCs shouldn't have been able to be surprised by them.

...

A somewhat similar thing comes up in Perkins' example, where the encounter starts before the wyverns can act (presumably because they rolled lower on initiative). Assuming that you are applying the surprise rules in these situations, I think the solution in these sorts of cases is probably to take a bit more advantage, as a GM, of the fact that initiative is an abstraction and all the action is taking place simultaneously: let the archers attack, and then have the visible bandits go, and then roll initiative after that first round. And in the wyvern case, have the GM declare the cultist attacks, then announce the wyverns' presence also ("You also see wyverns that you hadn't noticed swooping in!") - hence the PCs are surprised. Then resolve the melee attacks in initiative order.

This, what you just suggested, was exactly what Chris Perkins did. I apologize if my description above was inadequate. Several people have made similar comments about Chris Perkins having bent the rules or not following the rules based on my verbal description of the session and I want to stress that if you are interested in this as an example of the application of the surprise rule in a situation nearly identical to the one in the OP, go watch the video of the PAX East 2014 livestream game from 1:15 to 1:30. I first posted about this before I rewatched the encounter and I think that led to some confusion about what really happened. I just want to clear up the fact that the wyverns did act in the first round of combat before the initiative counts of all the members of Acquisitions Inc. which is why I feel this is a cut and dried example of the application of the surprise rules as they are. Please watch the video and tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[Iosue]

One thing to consider is that PAX East 2014 took place in March. Perkins may not have had, or been using, the final rules as we have them now.

 

[Hriston]

One thing to consider is that PAX East 2014 took place in March. Perkins may not have had, or been using, the final rules as we have them now.

I'm not saying that this or any game is an authoritative expression of the published rules, but if you watch it I think you'd find that it seems to follow the surprise rule we have to its logical conclusion. Perkins is one of the authors of this edition after all. Have you watched the video?

 

[Hriston]

One thing to consider is that PAX East 2014 took place in March. Perkins may not have had, or been using, the final rules as we have them now.

I'm not saying that this or any game is an authoritative expression of the published rules, but if you watch it I think you'd find that it seems to follow the surprise rule we have to its logical conclusion. Perkins is one of the authors of this edition after all. Have you watched the video?

 

[pemerton]

I just don't see the logic of allowing the PCs to be surprised when they can clearly see the threat of the bandits in the open. That interpretation makes no sense to me. Basically this allows a single surpriser to lock down the enemy for an entire round while the surpriser's allies get a free round.

So if the PCs are walking down the road and see a group of ogres charging them then a single hidden goblin could lock the PCs down in the first round. That makes no sense at all.

I addressed this upthread. Only an unnoticed threat triggers surprise. If the PCs are gearing up to fight ogres, a single goblin is not a threat.

 

[Hriston]

threat n. a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I just watched this again on the wizards website. Its the PAX East 2014 game. The combat runs from around 1:15 to 1:30. I just wanted to clarify the above with what I just saw. First, a minor point, the perception check was called for before combat began. This very well could have been a passive check which is how I would have done it. Secondly, the PCs all had low initiative rolls, so the cultists got to go first. Once the cultists had made their attacks, the DM announced the presence of the wyverns and they attacked, surprising the PCs and turning this first round into a surprise round retroactively. This came as a surprise to the players when the next round began and they hadn't been given the opportunity to attack yet. It was the cultists' turn again. So it wasn't, as I mistakenly said above, that a "new encounter" had begun, but that the first round was ruled to be a surprise round because that was when the wyverns took action. I hope this helps by way of example.

Sounds like a terrible ruling.

Without some kind of means to coordinate the attack, the cultists are surprised as well.

If there was some channel of communication, it is possible the PCs would detect it and spoil the ambush for both cultists and Wyverns.

 

[Hriston]

Sounds like a terrible ruling.

Without some kind of means to coordinate the attack, the cultists are surprised as well.

If there was some channel of communication, it is possible the PCs would detect it and spoil the ambush for both cultists and Wyverns.

One of the cultists was magically controlling the wyverns. Once again, watch the video.