D&D 5E How do you kill a 10th level character?

[Quartz]

Now, you can still die by failed death saves, of course. But that takes a minimum of 3 rounds, and usually 4-5.

I'm not sure you're right here: surely the minimum is the same round? Say the enemy hits you and you go down, and then the enemy hits you two more times. That's four death saves right there. Or three enemies hit you on the same initiative count and one downs you and the other two require two death saves apiece.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, it's really a minimum of one turn, not three rounds. 5e makes it so easy to attack unconscious creatures (with multiple attacks and the ability to move on to other targets between them) that, in some cases, monsters would be going out of their way if they didn't do it.

Contrast this with the very punitive 3.x coup de gras, which required a full attack action (so, no multiple attacks and no movement past 5 ft). Not to mention that it also provoked attacks of opportunity.

I'm not sure you're right here: surely the minimum is the same round? Say the enemy hits you and you go down, and then the enemy hits you two more times. That's four death saves right there. Or three enemies hit you on the same initiative count and one downs you and the other two require two death saves apiece.

I'm not counting "being hit again while you're down" as failed death saves. I mean, yes, technically it kills you by adding to your failed death save count, but there's a key difference between getting knocked unconscious and then bleeding out, versus a monster ripping your head off your unconscious body. The former happens more or less automatically as part of combat. The latter only happens if the DM actively decides to make it happen. Absent such a decision by the DM, the only time you're likely to take damage when you're down is if you're hit by an area effect.

 

[Rune]

I'm not counting "being hit again while you're down" as failed death saves.

Why not? It's how the system addresses the issues you've detailed about dying at higher levels.

I mean, yes, technically it kills you by adding to your failed death save count, but there's a key difference between getting knocked unconscious and then bleeding out, versus a monster ripping your head off your unconscious body. The former happens more or less automatically as part of combat. The latter only happens if the DM actively decides to make it happen. Absent such a decision by the DM, the only time you're likely to take damage when you're down is if you're hit by an area effect.

It seems to me the system doesn't just facilitate it; it incentivizes it if the DM thinks it's too hard to kill high-level characters.

 

[Nebulous]

Don't forget that a natural 1 counts as two failed death saves! So that is actually a minimum of 2 rounds- and I've seen the natural 1 come up once so far.

I really like that element of death saves; I think a large part of the way they work is to eliminate the predictability of the old "Lose 1 hp per round until you reach -10" that let the pcs ignore a downed comrade until the last possible moment.

Or 1 round; if two enemies hit a downed PC, that 2 crits = that's 4 failed death saves. Unless the death save happens on the PCs "turn" and not at the moment they're struck.

 

[Nebulous]

Why not? It's how the system addresses the issues you've detailed about dying at higher levels.



It seems to me the system doesn't just facilitate it; it incentivizes it if the DM thinks it's too hard to kill high-level characters.

I have to say, implementing this strategy would quickly turn a high level campaign into a far, far more deadly scenario.

 

[Rune]

Of course, just because some foes might (and can easily) do it, doesn't mean everybody would. As an option for the DM, though, it's a potent one.

 

[Dausuul]

Why not? It's how the system addresses the issues you've detailed about dying at higher levels.

Because the system never causes a monster to attack a downed PC. That's the decision of the DM. If SirAntoine is DMing the game, it will never happen, even if the DM is following every rule to the letter. If The Jester is DMing, it'll happen regularly (if the party lets it).

It seems to me the system doesn't just facilitate it; it incentivizes it if the DM thinks it's too hard to kill high-level characters.

The DM always has the power to decide "I'm going to kill a PC now" and do it. I once had a mid-level (around 6th or 7th, I think) PC deliberately pick a fight with an ancient dragon*. I shrugged and hit him full force with the dragon's breath weapon. End of PC. I don't feel this was unreasonable, but it was a conscious decision on my part: "I am now going to do something that is guaranteed to end in death for this PC." I could have chosen otherwise. The dragon could have toyed with him instead of killing him outright, giving him a chance to reconsider and flee. It would be a dragonlike thing to do--I view dragons as arrogant bastards, smart but prone to overconfidence--and in other circumstances I might have done it. But in this case, I decided instant death was a more appropriate response.

Attacking downed PCs is another way for the DM to decide, "I'm going to kill a PC now." There's nothing wrong with that. Used properly, it can make campaigns more lethal and ratchet up tension without being unfair--after all, PCs can avoid it by not getting taken down to zero in the first place. But it doesn't affect how lethal the system is. To me, "system lethality" is about deaths that happen due to the fall of the dice, without the DM making an active decision to kill someone.

[size=-2]*I was never quite clear why. He might have been testing to see how far I'd go to keep PCs alive, or he might have just wanted to make a new character. If the latter, he got his wish.[/SIZE]

 

[jgsugden]

This game is supposed to be fun. If a player thinks a glorious death for his PC is fun, DMs should not hesitate to bring that particular joy around. However, if a player loves his PC and doesn't want to lose it, there should be more hesitation - because you're making the game more fun for that player.

The DM has a lot of control over these things through encounter design and enemy tactics. As a DM, you should figure out what is fun for your players - and give them that experience.

 

[Nebulous]

I'm not sure you're right here: surely the minimum is the same round? Say the enemy hits you and you go down, and then the enemy hits you two more times. That's four death saves right there. Or three enemies hit you on the same initiative count and one downs you and the other two require two death saves apiece.

Oh, I didn't even see this earlier; yeah, i said the same thing. Hitting a PC while he's down is the surest, easiest way to kill him. Even 1 hit point of damage will count as 2 failed death saves!

 

[Rune]

[MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION]:

I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't understand why you don't factor in the DM's tactical decisions as part of the mechanical underpinnings of the system, when they are actually a very critical variable in the equation.

It is no less the case that a DM who chooses not to attack an unconscious character is also intervening in the system's resolution.

Further, it is entirely possible for a DM to determine ahead of time that a certain NPC will attack downed opponents if given the chance. That isn't "choosing to kill a PC." It's choosing to follow through on a predetermined tactical course.