D&D 5E How do you kill a 10th level character?

[Dausuul]

Not sure if you're talking about shadows or wraiths, here, but, in either case they can travel through walls/ceilings/floors (in the case of the shadow, through cracks) and come back for surprise strikes later. So that hasn't really changed. Actually, with the fluidity and flexibility of 5e movement, it might even be better.

Yeah, I'd say it's significantly better in 5E. In 3.5E, an incorporeal creature could sit inside a wall and flail at targets outside, but it was attacking blind (50% miss chance), could only hit targets adjacent to the wall, and was still subject to readied attacks, albeit with cover. On the other hand, if it came out of the wall to attack, it would then have to end its turn in the open.

In 5E, the same incorporeal creature can start on the other side of a wall; move through the wall; attack a foe; and move back through the wall to safety. It does have to have an open space on the other side of the wall to end its turn in, and it provokes an opportunity attack as it retreats, but taking an OA means you can't use a readied attack, so it evens out.

In 3.5E, the only monsters that could do this were those that had Spring Attack--dread wraiths, greater shadows, and the few ghosts that happened to learn Spring Attack in life. Regular wraiths, shadows, spectres, allips, and ghosts were out of luck.

Right, that's it. Lord. I think a pack of those would send just about any hero running for the hills.

You can say that again. They aren't much on their own, but add them to an encounter with other monsters and they are vicious. Our 13th-level (!) party recently fought an enemy wizard who could summon shadows, and we were appalled to realize that despite having two full 13th-level casters in the party, we had no way to get rid of the Strength drain. (We were emphatically not in a position to take a short rest.) We turned all our firepower on the shadows and burned them down fast, but even so the barbarian had to struggle along with crippling penalties to hit and damage till we were able to wangle a chance to rest.

 

[the Jester]

That's really cool, and kind of makes me want to run a game like that. What level have you taken it to? Is it sustainable into the low teens? How often does your group play? (My group can only manage to play about 1-2 times a month, which might be an issue if there's a big level gap.)

So far my 5e group is only up to 4th level. But in the 1e and 2e days, I had new pcs starting at first level with groups in the mid-teens, which was really, really high in those days.

The fact that those low-level pcs advance very swiftly (at first) compared to their higher-level buddies is sometimes called out as problematic or a "why bother, then?" by detractors of ES@1, but to me, it's entirely appropriate from the perspective of the new guy learning from his higher-level mentors. Even so, I rarely saw a pc gain more than one level per session, and then only in the most extreme cases (and only when I awarded xps more than once per session).

Make no mistake, it really requires- not exactly finessing, but serious awareness on the part of the DM. And on the part of the players, for that matter; if the high-level guys insist that every adventure should involve taking on old dragons and pit fiends, despite the fact that they're traveling with rookies, then of course it won't work as well.

 

[Rune]

With 5e this mantra just comes across as weak design

I would argue that providing the ability to tweak rules without breaking the whole comes across as strong design.

The flanking rules in the dmg for example just reeks of laziness to me, with no discussion on how positioning based advantages are meaningful choices for combatants when you can walk circles around opponents at no cost. Like, give me your best game with all the nooks and crannies explored reasonably well, and let me tweak from there.

Note that introducing the DMG's facing rules directly addresses this issue by changing the area that creatures threaten to not-a-circle-around-the-creature. Moving into flanking position will likely provoke.

 

[Nebulous]

So, my group is only 4th level and I have not seen higher level 5th edition. What exactly is making it so much harder to kill characters? Because personally I don't see it. Monsters deal more damage, they come in greater numbers, they have more special attacks, etc. And this offsets the increased healing opportunities the PCs have. I do not find death saving throws a game breaking mechanic. Given the advantage rolls to hit a downed PC, and the autocrit (and double death saves) you can kill a PC in a single round if you (the DM) really wanted to.

 

[Dausuul]

So, my group is only 4th level and I have not seen higher level 5th edition. What exactly is making it so much harder to kill characters? Because personally I don't see it. Monsters deal more damage, they come in greater numbers, they have more special attacks, etc. And this offsets the increased healing opportunities the PCs have. I do not find death saving throws a game breaking mechanic. Given the advantage rolls to hit a downed PC, and the autocrit (and double death saves) you can kill a PC in a single round if you (the DM) really wanted to.

The reason it's hard is that the instant death threshold in 5E is equal to your max hit points; you have to take that much damage in a single hit. In fact, you have to take that much damage plus your current hit points. At low levels, this is quite possible. A 4th-level wizard with Con 12 has 22 hit points; if you're already down to single digits and you take a good solid crit to the head, or even just a normal blow from an ogre that rolls high on damage, it can kill you dead right there.

However, things change at high levels, because damage per hit does not scale at the same rate as hit points. Like PCs, high-end monsters increase their damage output partly through getting extra attacks, and instant death only happens if you take all the damage in a single blow. The same wizard at level 10 has 52 hit points, and very few monsters of CR 10 or less can deal that much damage in one hit. Even an adult red dragon, at CR 17, only deals an average of 63 with its biggest gun; and since the dragon is likely to open the fight by using its breath weapon, the wizard will probably have enough hit points to avoid outright death in the first blast.

Now, you can still die by failed death saves, of course. But that takes a minimum of 3 rounds, and usually 4-5. Most of the time, the other PCs can get to you and stabilize you in time to prevent that. Even if they don't, you've got a better than 50% chance to stabilize on your own.

The upshot is that 10th-level PCs are unlikely to die unless a) they get caught in area attacks while unconscious, or b) monsters go out of their way to finish them off.

 

[Nebulous]

The reason it's hard is that the instant death threshold in 5E is equal to your max hit points; you have to take that much damage in a single hit. In fact, you have to take that much damage plus your current hit points. At low levels, this is quite possible. A 4th-level wizard with Con 12 has 22 hit points; if you're already down to single digits and you take a good solid crit to the head, or even just a normal blow from an ogre or similar monster, it can easily kill you dead right there.

However, things change at high levels, because damage per hit does not scale at the same rate as hit points. Like PCs, high-end monsters increase their damage output partly through getting extra attacks, and instant death only happens if you take all the damage in a single blow. The same wizard at level 10 has 52 hit points, and very few monsters of CR 10 or less can deal that much damage in one hit. Even an adult red dragon, at CR 17, only deals an average of 63 with its biggest gun; and since the dragon is likely to open the fight by using its breath weapon, the wizard will probably have enough hit points to avoid outright death in the first blast.

Now, you can still die by failed death saves, of course. But that takes a minimum of 3 rounds, and usually 4-5. Most of the time, the other PCs can get to you and stabilize you in time to prevent that. Even if they don't, you've got a better than 50% chance to stabilize on your own.

The upshot is that 10th-level PCs are unlikely to die unless a) they get caught in area attacks while unconscious, or b) monsters go out of their way to finish them off.

Hmm, ok, well I guess I was aware of the death by massive damage rule, and you're right, at high level it's very difficult to one shot a player like this. Does the DMG offer any optional rules for cases like this? Such as "How to Make Your Campaign More Lethal?" This could easily be circumvented by having Damage = Con being the default, or Con x2, or Con x3. Or, by simply saying that ANY damage taken in a round contributes, not just one hit. There's so many ways to do this, but it looks like by default they didn't want high level PCs biting it in this manner.

 

[Dausuul]

There's so many ways to do this, but it looks like by default they didn't want high level PCs biting it in this manner.

I think that is exactly what the designers had in mind. The way the rules are written, the DM has full control over how lethal the game is, by choosing the tactics of the monsters. If monsters use area attacks and attack downed PCs on a regular basis, the game will see a lot of PC death. If not, PC death will be rare. That makes it possible for SirAntoine and The Jester to use the same rule set and both get the results they like. High-level PCs can die, but unless the players made horrendous decisions or had truly atrocious luck on the dice, it will only happen if the DM "signs off on it."

I may be wrong--don't have the DMG with me right now--but my recollection is that the DMG has optional rules for making the death and dying rules more punitive, all the way up to hardcore AD&D-style where you drop dead at zero hit points, end of story, roll a new PC.

 

[the Jester]

Now, you can still die by failed death saves, of course. But that takes a minimum of 3 rounds, and usually 4-5.

Don't forget that a natural 1 counts as two failed death saves! So that is actually a minimum of 2 rounds- and I've seen the natural 1 come up once so far.

I really like that element of death saves; I think a large part of the way they work is to eliminate the predictability of the old "Lose 1 hp per round until you reach -10" that let the pcs ignore a downed comrade until the last possible moment.

 

[Dausuul]

Don't forget that a natural 1 counts as two failed death saves! So that is actually a minimum of 2 rounds- and I've seen the natural 1 come up once so far.

I really like that element of death saves; I think a large part of the way they work is to eliminate the predictability of the old "Lose 1 hp per round until you reach -10" that let the pcs ignore a downed comrade until the last possible moment.

Ah, you are correct! I did forget about that. And you're right, it's a nice little wrinkle. It's rare to see it come up, but the fact that it could come up adds urgency to the need to save fallen comrades.

 

[Rune]

Now, you can still die by failed death saves, of course. But that takes a minimum of 3 rounds, and usually 4-5. Most of the time, the other PCs can get to you and stabilize you in time to prevent that. Even if they don't, you've got a better than 50% chance to stabilize on your own.

The upshot is that 10th-level PCs are unlikely to die unless a) they get caught in area attacks while unconscious, or b) monsters go out of their way to finish them off.

Well, it's really a minimum of one turn, not three rounds. 5e makes it so easy to attack unconscious creatures (with multiple attacks and the ability to move on to other targets between them) that, in some cases, monsters would be going out of their way if they didn't do it.

Contrast this with the very punitive 3.x coup de grace, which required a full attack action (so, no multiple attacks and no movement past 5 ft). Not to mention that it also provoked attacks of opportunity.