D&D 5E 5th edition Forgotten Realms: Why can't you just ignore the lore?

[HobbitFan]

I've played in the Realms for decades and only run into Elminster once and you know what his role was in the adventure? Sage. He gave us some background on something we found and helped us figure soemthing out. That's it. No problems and no adventures ruined or players made to feel powerless.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I've played in the Realms for decades and only run into Elminster once and you know what his role was in the adventure? Sage. He gave us some background on something we found and helped us figure soemthing out. That's it. No problems and no adventures ruined or players made to feel powerless.

and again.. if that is true, and everyone agrees, why do we need 32nd level stats for him? You see if you treat elmunchkin as a background quest giver and it works, then aren't you on myside? I mean you aren't using his 10 spells per level 1-9 and epic spells, and silver fire... so what is the purpose of giving them to us?

You see if you want him to be awesome powerful, that is problematic... if you want him as just fluff it kinda works... but they don't just make him just fluff...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I pushed for an "Ultimate FR" years ago. A reimagineing of the realms where wizards didn't rule and warlords could be just as epic and one where things made sense... no good aligned god of magic granting spells to evil vile necromancers... do the weave and shadow weave from the beginning... lower the power level too, make it so the huge world spaning NPCs are all level 13-17 with only th biggest being 18th or 19th and no 20+ level NPCs at all... leave a lot of lore intact but also give room to expand... I could only dream

here is my idea of what a very usable elemintser is...

5th level bard human chosen... with a 30 Int and 30 Con (thanks to being chosen) a silver fire ability that lets him do some damage and rebuild anti magic/dead magic zones... then a special lore ability... he also has direct communication with mystra, so he knows a lot and can be used to give plots, and helpful advice, but he can't fight an army, infact mayb don't give him any combat spells at all

 

[HobbitFan]

and again.. if that is true, and everyone agrees, why do we need 32nd level stats for him? You see if you treat elmunchkin as a background quest giver and it works, then aren't you on myside? I mean you aren't using his 10 spells per level 1-9 and epic spells, and silver fire... so what is the purpose of giving them to us?

You see if you want him to be awesome powerful, that is problematic... if you want him as just fluff it kinda works... but they don't just make him just fluff...

The reason why they give the inflated stats is to match the crazy stuff he does in the books. Part of the reason stuff gets crazy in the books is becuase the Big E has been hero of so many. It's like sequals...things keep escalating because the writers think they need to one-up each successive storyline. That and he's been alive so long that he has to be powerful. The thing is there are evnils even more powerful than Elminster and if the throws his weight around so can they. There is always a a bigger fish!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The reason why they give the inflated stats is to match the crazy stuff he does in the books. Part of the reason stuff gets crazy in the books is becuase the Big E has been hero of so many. It's like sequals...things keep escalating because the writers think they need to one-up each successive storyline. That and he's been alive so long that he has to be powerful. The thing is there are evnils even more powerful than Elminster and if the throws his weight around so can they. There is always a a bigger fish!

great for a book where elmunchkin is the star...

terable for me to run a game in the world where he is always more important then anything we are doing...

just disconnect the books, seriesly I would buy a basic FR setting that undid all the novels... in a second. I would run that setting, one where all the big super munchkin mary sues are rolled back to regular NPC stats

 

[SirAntoine]

The mega NPC's help players imagine the world and their own characters' ultimate potential.

 

[Laeknir]

Personally, I agree that there's a problem with too many epic heroes and lvl 20+ NPCs just hanging out in every single tiny village in the Forgotten Realms. Sure, it's a high magic setting. And sure, Elminster and the goddess-children power team are out solving the truly big problems. Or maybe you treat them as locked in an arms race standstill with big baddies. But all of that really DOES have an impact on gameplay. It really does.

Elminster and the powerpuff girls are ALWAYS going to be more powerful, they're always going to know more than you, and heck, they've even been instructed to create and "plant" magical treasures in ancient ruins that have been farmed for millenia by the other twenty million lvl 20+ NPCs before you.

It's a lot like playing in Lord of the Rings setting. People do that, but it's not a hugely popular setting because quite literally the metastory has been entrusted to and accomplished by Tolkien's main characters. You are always going to be in the background as a minor schmoe for as long as they publish "epic power" novels. In Tolkien, the big stuff has all been done, you're just a tourist. Same with the Realms, Elminster and crew and probably his numerous pals and buddies are always going to make you feel like a tourist.

Compare with Greyhawk, where the Circle of Eight might know a few special secrets or clues, but they aren't heroes and they're certainly not starring in some epic save-the-world story every 1-2 years in some novel. They're also not really a super-team. Mordenkainen has his own interests, studies, politics, and so on and doesn't pair up in some kind of superhero team every Tuesday after scones. He might -maybe- help you with a point of lore or some helpful item, but since he's not a hero he will make you pay for it with coin or service. Conversely, if Elminster has heard about a world-level problem he's probably going to push you out of the way to go solve it.

It's not just THAT they're in the setting, it's about WHO they are and what they're known for in the novels.

 

[SirAntoine]

You're right, and it can make writing adventures very difficult. One of the causes for so many high level NPC's, I believe, is the assumption by Wizards of the Coast that there are many groups playing at high level. A lot hand out experience and treasure very fast, also, and want a high-powered, high magic game. The books may be loaded with high level NPC's, and so many with unique powers like Mystra's Chosen, because they're there to balance the scales and to help DM's keep players a little humble. Most groups probably come at this problem at low or medium levels, but from the point of view of a group where everyone is at least 15th level, let's say, and for some higher than this, the power gap is smaller and the PC's relative share of responsibility to tackle the biggest problems facing the setting is bigger.

A lot of Forgotten Realms players may want a very epic game. I can remember an old Forgotten Realms book about the City of Raven's Bluff, published with input from the RPGA Network and its Living Realms campaigns, where the owner of a magic item shop was a 40th level magic-user. For the same rules system, that was eleven levels higher than what was printed for Elminster, and ten levels higher than for the Simbul. And that was just a shopkeeper, a retired adventurer. I don't think they had invented the extra abilities for Elminster and the Chosen, either.

Going back further, there was a super module set in the Forgotten Realms, called H1-4: Throne of Bloodstone, I think, and the pre-generated PC's were set at 100th level.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It's not just THAT they're in the setting, it's about WHO they are and what they're known for in the novels.

exactly... if I had an epic wizard who was selfish and neutral and as likely to laugh and move his stuff to another plane as help save this one... I can work with that, if I have a really good guy hero, but he is limited in what he can do, I can work with that. It's when the hero who saves the day is also superpowerful that issues arise at the table...

 

[SirAntoine]

exactly... if I had an epic wizard who was selfish and neutral and as likely to laugh and move his stuff to another plane as help save this one... I can work with that, if I have a really good guy hero, but he is limited in what he can do, I can work with that. It's when the hero who saves the day is also superpowerful that issues arise at the table...

A good rule of thumb, if you really want to escape the problems you're describing while also being consistent to the books, is to involve the big NPC's only in matters that they are actually known to be involved in. That is, if you as DM want to use an established, published story arc involving one of their archenemies, then you should bring them into the equation, but if you make up something new, you have in hand an excuse why they wouldn't be involved. They can't be everywhere at the same time, and they might not even know about what your PC's are facing. Even regarding the most epic quests, they don't have to even know about them.