D&D 5E 5th edition Forgotten Realms: Why can't you just ignore the lore?

[GMforPowergamers]

A good rule of thumb, if you really want to escape the problems you're describing while also being consistent to the books, is to involve the big NPC's only in matters that they are actually known to be involved in. That is, if you as DM want to use an established, published story arc involving one of their archenemies, then you should bring them into the equation, but if you make up something new, you have in hand an excuse why they wouldn't be involved. They can't be everywhere at the same time, and they might not even know about what your PC's are facing. Even regarding the most epic quests, they don't have to even know about them.

that sounds great, except you have to know them all, I had plans for elmunchkin and blackstaff, and drizt because I saw those coming...

I am not a fan of post time or trouble and pre spell plague realms (so 2e,3e).

What I don't want, is a book I have to study to run the setting.

I will be told I am a bad DM, and a bad fan and suck at D&D (even thought I have run this experiment before and found my group only has these problems with some settings not others)

I was running a FR game back in 3.0... before the Epic level book was even out. It was pretty simple. I kept the PCs away from the Justice League Midnight, and was only some problems (other people disliking my idea of the setting) Then came the game ending explosion...

I had they prepping an army of slave soldiers and back up by necromancers. The idea I had was anyone who died on the battle field (either side) would be raised to then fight for the red wizards. They would start with neighbor and then steam roll through the region... The PCs where the only hope, they had to find the artifact staff of life and use it to stop the evil artifact that was boosting the necro magic... or they had to steal the necro artifact, or they had to fight the army... either way this was there war to win or loose. (PCs where 10-13th level),

Then the 10th level wizard and 11th level sorcerer/ranger told me "No, we will get the symbol to handle this."
my response was "Who?"

I was told it was the sorcerer queen of the kingdom about to be steam rolled, so I flipped ot the book, and read the region write up, but not her stats... I started playing her as not as powerful as the PCs, and not having the ability to help... then BOOM... sorry she is a chosen as powerful as Elmunchkin...

well then I changed to "She is too busy, other" and it was thrown in my face that she hates they and is a good aligned ruler... so yea...

I hate settings that require this much work.

my players have in the past, and still to this day ask to play in the FR, and I have to say no now... because I can't track 100+novel characters... I just can't.

 

[Laeknir]

The other thing that bothers me about the Realms is the highly campy quality of people and places everywhere.

For example, if you do include Elminster even as a quest giver, you have to pretty much play him as a sanctimonious asshat that will always try to put PCs in their "place" by talking down to them, using some over-powerful spell at a key moment to steal their thunder, and so on. It's pure camp, because he literally is overpowered all the time, and involved in everyone's business.

But it extends to cities as well. If you are in Cormyr, a kingdom with a supposedly long and amazing history of surviving wars and coups and so on, the books show that the nobility are all extremely stupid and prancy. Not just a few, 99% of them - except for the one or two outliers that are used as characters in the novels. Additionally, the palace guards and police force are ALWAYS portrayed as incompetent Keystone Kops. The wizards working for the crown will bury you in paperwork, endless questions, and subject you to constantly being followed and having the occasional telepathic mind-reaming to record all your secrets. It's ridiculous.

More than that, every time the gods are portrayed as novel characters (which is often, they'll even show up for lunch still today - see the last book of the Sundering series), they are always incredibly short-sighted and do really boneheaded things.

Back in the day of 1E and early 2E Realms it wasn't like this at all. There wasn't a giant metastory, Elminster was just a mage kinda like Mordenkainen, and mostly a sage in a remote town. At least, we weren't aware of all the goofy Chosen people and the insanely campy BS going on in Cormyr, because it hadn't been published. And the novels were all low-powered and fun, but not epic or world-shattering. At least not until the "Time of Troubles" when the floodgates opened to the endless goofy junk.

What many people don't realize is that the Realms changed at that moment. It didn't really change with 4E or even the Sundering, except superficially. It's all just been more layers of overpowered random stuff plus the kitchen sink since then, just bigger and campier each time. The "golden age" of the Realms when it was good and useful and playable has been LONG over for more than 20 years. They almost got rid of the superheroes in 4E, but they had to also jumble up the cosmos, kill gods, and other silly stuff. And "fixing it" now, they're bringing all the superheroes back and adding yet more unnecessary cosmic metastory with an overgod "teaching those naughty gods their lesson, darn it!" It's endless ridiculous camp, all in service to their terrible "epic" novels. It hasn't been a good game setting for decades.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What many people don't realize is that the Realms changed at that moment. It didn't really change with 4E or even the Sundering, except superficially. It's all just been more layers of overpowered random stuff plus the kitchen sink since then, just bigger and campier each time. The "golden age" of the Realms when it was good and useful and playable has been LONG over for more than 20 years.

yes, when I started playing D&D I read the grey box and thought it great, and people where just starting to talk about the ToT... so as I was getting into it I remember asking why a good aligned adventurer took the neutral deity of magic's spot, why she didn't just say "Hey, no evil magic users anymore..."

 

[Laeknir]

yes, when I started playing D&D I read the grey box and thought it great, and people where just starting to talk about the ToT... so as I was getting into it I remember asking why a good aligned adventurer took the neutral deity of magic's spot, why she didn't just say "Hey, no evil magic users anymore..."

Yep, exactly. I remember at the time wondering how and why a couple of adventurers around level 8-10 were even allowed to ascend to godhood. Not even just demigods, the "first step" on the path, but all three straight to greater godhood. And no one anywhere in any temple or church really questioned the dramatic changes, there was nothing organic in the novels or sourcebooks even remotely suggesting that commoners or priesthoods had any serious difficulty with any of it.

I mean, seriously? Three very important greater gods are swapped out for level 8 no-names, and life just smoothly goes on? It read like a bunch of 11-year-olds playing for the biggest Monty Haul DM of all time.

Yet if you talk to the die-hard Realmsians who have kept 20+ years of notes on everything, the way they talk you'd think the Realms is a fairly gritty setting where complex political machinations are the norm. Where lots of roleplaying occurs figuring out interesting and ancient arcane puzzles of long-lost cultures. Or where players spend time investing their gold in various back-door deals run by clever nobles or cloaked drow in Skullport. I can't think of one single novel that supports any of that rich, high RP play. But I can think of many examples where everything and everyone is just campy and goofy, yet somehow always win the day with deus ex machina.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Yet if you talk to the die-hard Realmsians who have kept 20+ years of notes on everything, the way they talk you'd think the Realms...

Heh...as one of those DMs, it's been my experience that the last trio of Elminster novels (all set in Cormyr, go figure) do a great job of both telling a story and piling on lore, intrigue, history and useful information for DMs who like to spice up their campaigns and do a little bit more than provide meat for their players to hack apart and roast with fireballs.

There are more novels like this than just "Elminster Enraged", "Elminster Must Die" and "Bury Elminster Deep", but these three are a good start.

 

[Sailor Moon]

if that were the case then people wouldn't bitch about my suggestion of him just being a sage... make him a 'chosen' and a powerful sage, without any spells or only a few... let the PCs be the powerful casters...

Thing, Faerun is huge and while Elminster and others are powerful, they aren't automatically aware of what's going on in other places nor can they be everywhere at the same time. The Chosen aren't the Justice League.

 

[Sailor Moon]

The other thing that bothers me about the Realms is the highly campy quality of people and places everywhere.

For example, if you do include Elminster even as a quest giver, you have to pretty much play him as a sanctimonious asshat that will always try to put PCs in their "place" by talking down to them, using some over-powerful spell at a key moment to steal their thunder, and so on. It's pure camp, because he literally is overpowered all the time, and involved in everyone's business.

But it extends to cities as well. If you are in Cormyr, a kingdom with a supposedly long and amazing history of surviving wars and coups and so on, the books show that the nobility are all extremely stupid and prancy. Not just a few, 99% of them - except for the one or two outliers that are used as characters in the novels. Additionally, the palace guards and police force are ALWAYS portrayed as incompetent Keystone Kops. The wizards working for the crown will bury you in paperwork, endless questions, and subject you to constantly being followed and having the occasional telepathic mind-reaming to record all your secrets. It's ridiculous.

More than that, every time the gods are portrayed as novel characters (which is often, they'll even show up for lunch still today - see the last book of the Sundering series), they are always incredibly short-sighted and do really boneheaded things.

Back in the day of 1E and early 2E Realms it wasn't like this at all. There wasn't a giant metastory, Elminster was just a mage kinda like Mordenkainen, and mostly a sage in a remote town. At least, we weren't aware of all the goofy Chosen people and the insanely campy BS going on in Cormyr, because it hadn't been published. And the novels were all low-powered and fun, but not epic or world-shattering. At least not until the "Time of Troubles" when the floodgates opened to the endless goofy junk.

What many people don't realize is that the Realms changed at that moment. It didn't really change with 4E or even the Sundering, except superficially. It's all just been more layers of overpowered random stuff plus the kitchen sink since then, just bigger and campier each time. The "golden age" of the Realms when it was good and useful and playable has been LONG over for more than 20 years. They almost got rid of the superheroes in 4E, but they had to also jumble up the cosmos, kill gods, and other silly stuff. And "fixing it" now, they're bringing all the superheroes back and adding yet more unnecessary cosmic metastory with an overgod "teaching those naughty gods their lesson, darn it!" It's endless ridiculous camp, all in service to their terrible "epic" novels. It hasn't been a good game setting for decades.

It's clearly obvious you don't know the Realms very well.

 

[GSHamster]

Heh, I wonder if you could go meta with this. Have the PCs be hired by Elminster (or whoever is the standard power in the area) as a group to deal with the threats he doesn't have time for.

With that, you always have an answer for the question "Why doesn't X take care of it?" He is, he hired the PCs to deal with it.

 

[edhel]

In my opinion FR is written very prescriptively. It tells how things are, not how things could be or what the color of the world is. It has lots of (unimportant) history, and it reads like a history book. If it offered tables and tools for creating your own ruins and 'forgotten realms', people might more eager to discard whatever canon there is and create their own things. Compare FR to e.g. Eberron which offers a framework and some ideas but leaves details to you. FR has books telling you what a certain inn offers as dinner and how much it costs.
FR has also been presented in a certain way in different medias and players have often preconceptions of the setting. It takes a lot of work to address each one. It's like playing Star Wars and saying that jedis don't use lightsabers and TIE fighters don't actually look like that.

 

[Sailor Moon]

In my opinion FR is written very prescriptively. It tells how things are, not how things could be or what the color of the world is. It has lots of (unimportant) history, and it reads like a history book. If it offered tables and tools for creating your own ruins and 'forgotten realms', people might more eager to discard whatever canon there is and create their own things. Compare FR to e.g. Eberron which offers a framework and some ideas but leaves details to you. FR has books telling you what a certain inn offers as dinner and how much it costs.
FR has also been presented in a certain way in different medias and players have often preconceptions of the setting. It takes a lot of work to address each one. It's like playing Star Wars and saying that jedis don't use lightsabers and TIE fighters don't actually look like that.

And that is exactly how the Realms is meant to be.

That is why WoTc should have gone with Greyhawk because it's less about the established lore and more about forging your own stories.

FR is more about creating your stories but with in certain boundries. That's what makes the Realms unique. It would be like removing dragons from Dragonlance.